§130ταῦτα δὲ ἀνδρείως μὲν πάνυ ἡγοῦμαι πεπραγματεῦσθαι· πολὺ μεντἂν ὧδε μᾶλλον, ὡς λέγω, ἀγασθείην εἴ τις ἔχοι τὴν αὐτὴν ταύτην ἀπορίαν ἐν αὐτοῖς τοῖς εἴδεσι παντοδαπῶς πλεκομένην, ὥσπερ ἐν τοῖς ὁρωμένοις διήλθετε, οὕτως καὶ ἐν τοῖς λογισμῷ λαμβανομένοις ἐπιδεῖξαι. λέγοντος δή, ἔφη ὁ Πυθόδωρος, τοῦ Σωκράτους ταῦτα αὐτὸς μὲν ἂν οἴεσθαι ἐφʼ ἑκάστου ἄχθεσθαι τόν τε Παρμενίδην καὶ τὸν Ζήνωνα, τοὺς δὲ πάνυ τε αὐτῷ προσέχειν τὸν νοῦν καὶ θαμὰ εἰς ἀλλήλους βλέποντας μειδιᾶν ὡς ἀγαμένους τὸν Σωκράτη.
"These things," I said, "I believe have been treated very courageously; however, I should be much more amazed in this way, as I say, if someone could show this same difficulty being woven in every way in the forms themselves, just as you went through it in the case of visible things, so also to demonstrate it in the things grasped by reasoning." While Socrates was saying this, Pythodorus said that he himself thought Parmenides and Zeno would be annoyed at each point, but that they paid close attention to him and, looking at each other frequently, smiled as if admiring Socrates.
ὅπερ οὖν καὶ παυσαμένου αὐτοῦ εἰπεῖν τὸν Παρμενίδην· ὦ Σώκρατες, φάναι, ὡς ἄξιος εἶ ἄγασθαι τῆς ὁρμῆς τῆς ἐπὶ τοὺς λόγους.
And indeed, when he finished, Parmenides said: "Socrates, you are worthy of admiration for your impulse toward arguments.
καί μοι εἰπέ, αὐτὸς σὺ οὕτω διῄρησαι ὡς λέγεις, χωρὶς μὲν εἴδη αὐτὰ ἄττα, χωρὶς δὲ τὰ τούτων αὖ μετέχοντα;
And tell me, have you yourself divided them in this way as you say, separating certain forms themselves on one hand, and on the other hand the things that participate in them in turn?
καί τί σοι δοκεῖ εἶναι αὐτὴ ὁμοιότης χωρὶς ἧς ἡμεῖς ὁμοιότητος ἔχομεν, καὶ ἓν δὴ καὶ πολλὰ καὶ πάντα ὅσα νυνδὴ Ζήνωνος ἤκουες; ἔμοιγε, φάναι τὸν Σωκράτη.
And does it seem to you that there is likeness itself apart from the likeness we possess, and indeed the one and many and all the things you have just heard from Zeno?" "To me at least," said Socrates.
ἦ καὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα, εἰπεῖν τὸν Παρμενίδην, οἷον δικαίου τι εἶδος αὐτὸ καθʼ αὑτὸ καὶ καλοῦ καὶ ἀγαθοῦ καὶ πάντων αὖ τῶν τοιούτων; ναί, φάναι.
"And also things of this kind," said Parmenides, "such as some form of justice itself in and of itself, and of beauty and of good, and of all such things in turn?" "Yes," he said.
τί δʼ, ἀνθρώπου εἶδος χωρὶς ἡμῶν καὶ τῶν οἷοι ἡμεῖς ἐσμεν πάντων, αὐτό τι εἶδος ἀνθρώπου ἢ πυρὸς ἢ καὶ ὕδατος; ἐν ἀπορίᾳ, φάναι, πολλάκις δή, ὦ Παρμενίδη, περὶ αὐτῶν γέγονα, πότερα χρὴ φάναι ὥσπερ περὶ ἐκείνων ἢ ἄλλως. ἦ καὶ περὶ τῶνδε, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἃ καὶ γελοῖα δόξειεν ἂν εἶναι, οἷον θρὶξ καὶ πηλὸς καὶ ῥύπος ἢ ἄλλο τι ἀτιμότατόν τε καὶ φαυλότατον, ἀπορεῖς εἴτε χρὴ φάναι καὶ τούτων ἑκάστου εἶδος εἶναι χωρίς, ὂν ἄλλο αὖ ἢ ὧν τι ἡμεῖς μεταχειριζόμεθα, εἴτε καὶ μή; οὐδαμῶς, φάναι τὸν Σωκράτη, ἀλλὰ ταῦτα μέν γε ἅπερ ὁρῶμεν, ταῦτα καὶ εἶναι·
"And what about a form of man, apart from us and all those who are such as we are, some form of man itself, or of fire or of water?" "I have often indeed, Parmenides," he said, "been in difficulty about these, whether one should speak of them in the same way as those others, or otherwise." "And also about these, Socrates, which might even seem ridiculous, such as hair and mud and dirt, or any other most dishonored and worthless thing, are you in difficulty whether one should say that there is a separate form of each of these too, being something else in turn than the things we handle, or not?" "Not at all," said Socrates, "on the contrary, these things at least are just what we see, and they are; and to think that there is some form of them might be too absurd.
εἶδος δέ τι αὐτῶν οἰηθῆναι εἶναι μὴ λίαν ᾖ ἄτοπον. ἤδη μέντοι ποτέ με καὶ ἔθραξε μή τι ᾖ περὶ πάντων ταὐτόν· ἔπειτα ὅταν ταύτῃ στῶ, φεύγων οἴχομαι, δείσας μή ποτε εἴς τινα βυθὸν φλυαρίας ἐμπεσὼν διαφθαρῶ· ἐκεῖσε δʼ οὖν ἀφικόμενος, εἰς ἃ νυνδὴ ἐλέγομεν εἴδη ἔχειν, περὶ ἐκεῖνα πραγματευόμενος διατρίβω. νέος γὰρ εἶ ἔτι, φάναι τὸν Παρμενίδην, ὦ Σώκρατες, καὶ οὔπω σου ἀντείληπται φιλοσοφία ὡς ἔτι ἀντιλήψεται κατʼ ἐμὴν δόξαν, ὅτε οὐδὲν αὐτῶν ἀτιμάσεις· νῦν δὲ ἔτι πρὸς ἀνθρώπων ἀποβλέπεις δόξας διὰ τὴν ἡλικίαν.
Yet sometimes indeed it has troubled me whether the same might not hold for all things; then, when I stand on this ground, I run away, fearing lest I should fall into some bottomless pit of nonsense and perish; so having returned there, to those things which we were just saying have forms, I spend my time busy with them." "For you are still young, Socrates," said Parmenides, "and philosophy has not yet taken hold of you as it will yet take hold of you, in my opinion, when you will dishonor none of these things; but now, because of your age, you still look to the opinions of men.
τόδε δʼ οὖν μοι εἰπέ. δοκεῖ σοι, ὡς φῄς, εἶναι εἴδη ἄττα, ὧν τάδε τὰ ἄλλα μεταλαμβάνοντα τὰς ἐπωνυμίας αὐτῶν ἴσχειν, οἷον ὁμοιότητος μὲν μεταλαβόντα ὅμοια, μεγέθους δὲ μεγάλα, κάλλους δὲ καὶ δικαιοσύνης δίκαιά τε καὶ καλὰ γίγνεσθαι;
But tell me this: does it seem to you, as you say, that there are certain forms, of which these other things, by participating in them, get their names, as, for example, by participating in likeness they become like, in greatness great, and in beauty and justice, just and beautiful?"