§304ΞΕ. κατὰ τὸν αὐτὸν τοίνυν λόγον ἔοικε καὶ νῦν ἡμῖν τὰ μὲν ἕτερα καὶ ὁπόσα ἀλλότρια καὶ τὰ μὴ φίλα πολιτικῆς ἐπιστήμης ἀποκεχωρίσθαι, λείπεσθαι δὲ τὰ τίμια καὶ συγγενῆ.
STRANGER: According to the same argument, then, it seems that for us too now, other things, as many as are foreign and not friendly to political science, have been separated, while the valuable and akin remain.
τούτων δʼ ἐστί που στρατηγία καὶ δικαστικὴ καὶ ὅση βασιλικῇ κοινωνοῦσα ῥητορεία πείθουσα τὸ δίκαιον συνδιακυβερνᾷ τὰς ἐν ταῖς πόλεσι πράξεις·
Among these are surely generalship, the administration of justice, and all that rhetoric which, sharing in the kingly art, by persuading what is just, helps to steer the activities in the cities.
ἃ δὴ τίνι τρόπῳ ῥᾷστά τις ἀπομερίζων δείξει γυμνὸν καὶ μόνον ἐκεῖνον καθʼ αὑτὸν τὸν ζητούμενον ὑφʼ ἡμῶν;
In what way, then, can one most easily set these aside and show that very thing we are seeking, naked and alone by itself?
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. δῆλον ὅτι τοῦτό πῃ δρᾶν πειρατέον.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Clearly we must try to do this in some way.
ΞΕ. πείρας μὲν τοίνυν ἕνεκα φανερὸς ἔσται· διὰ δὲ μουσικῆς αὐτὸν ἐγχειρητέον δηλῶσαι.
STRANGER: For the sake of trial, then, it will be clear; but we must attempt to show it through music.
καί μοι λέγε.
Tell me, then.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τὸ ποῖον;
YOUNG SOCRATES: What sort of thing?
ΞΕ. μουσικῆς ἔστι πού τις ἡμῖν μάθησις, καὶ ὅλως τῶν περὶ χειροτεχνίας ἐπιστημῶν;
STRANGER: Is there for us, I suppose, some learning of music, and generally of the sciences concerning handicraft?
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ἔστιν.
YOUNG SOCRATES: There is.
ΞΕ. τί δέ;
STRANGER: What then?
τὸ δʼ αὖ τούτων ἡντινοῦν εἴτε δεῖ μανθάνειν ἡμᾶς εἴτε μή, πότερα φήσομεν ἐπιστήμην αὖ καὶ ταύτην εἶναί τινα περὶ αὐτὰ ταῦτα, ἢ πῶς;
Whether we ought to learn any of these or not, shall we say that this again is some science concerning these very things, or how?
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. οὕτως, εἶναι φήσομεν.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes, we shall say it is.
ΞΕ. οὐκοῦν ἑτέραν ὁμολογήσομεν ἐκείνων εἶναι ταύτην;
STRANGER: Shall we agree, then, that this is different from those?
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ναί.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
ΞΕ. πότερα δὲ αὐτῶν οὐδεμίαν ἄρχειν δεῖν ἄλλην ἄλλης, ἢ ἐκείνας ταύτης, ἢ ταύτην δεῖν ἐπιτροπεύουσαν ἄρχειν συμπασῶν τῶν ἄλλων;
STRANGER: And should none of them rule over another, or should those rule over this, or should this, acting as a guardian, rule over all the others?
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ταύτην ἐκείνων.
YOUNG SOCRATES: This over those.
ΞΕ. τὴν εἰ δεῖ μανθάνειν ἢ μὴ τῆς μανθανομένης καὶ διδασκούσης ἄρα σύ γε ἀποφαίνῃ δεῖν ἡμῖν ἄρχειν;
STRANGER: Do you then declare that the science which decides whether we ought to learn or not must rule for us over that which is learned and taught?
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. σφόδρα γε.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Most certainly.
ΞΕ. καὶ τὴν εἰ δεῖ πείθειν ἄρα ἢ μὴ τῆς δυναμένης πείθειν;
STRANGER: And that which decides whether we ought to persuade or not must rule over that which is capable of persuading?
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πῶς δʼ οὔ;
YOUNG SOCRATES: How indeed could we not?
ΞΕ. εἶεν· τίνι τὸ πειστικὸν οὖν ἀποδώσομεν ἐπιστήμῃ πλήθους τε καὶ ὄχλου διὰ μυθολογίας ἀλλὰ μὴ διὰ διδαχῆς;
STRANGER: Well then; to what science shall we attribute the power of persuading the multitude and the crowd through storytelling but not through teaching?
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. φανερὸν οἶμαι καὶ τοῦτο ῥητορικῇ δοτέον ὄν.
YOUNG SOCRATES: This also, I think, is clearly to be given to rhetoric.
ΞΕ. τὸ δʼ εἴτε διὰ πειθοῦς εἴτε καὶ διά τινος βίας δεῖ πράττειν πρός τινας ὁτιοῦν ἢ καὶ τὸ παράπαν ἡσυχίαν ἔχειν, τοῦτʼ αὖ ποίᾳ προσθήσομεν ἐπιστήμῃ;
STRANGER: And whether we ought to act towards anyone in any way through persuasion or even through some force, or to keep quiet altogether, to what science again shall we assign this?
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τῇ τῆς πειστικῆς ἀρχούσῃ καὶ λεκτικῆς.
YOUNG SOCRATES: To the one that rules over the persuasive and speaking art.
ΞΕ. εἴη δʼ ἂν οὐκ ἄλλη τις, ὡς οἶμαι, πλὴν ἡ τοῦ πολιτικοῦ δύναμις.
STRANGER: And this would be no other, as I think, than the power of the statesman.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. κάλλιστʼ εἴρηκας.
YOUNG SOCRATES: You have spoken most excellently.
ΞΕ. καὶ τοῦτο μὲν ἔοικε ταχὺ κεχωρίσθαι πολιτικῆς τὸ ῥητορικόν, ὡς ἕτερον εἶδος ὄν, ὑπηρετοῦν μὴν ταύτῃ.
STRANGER: And so this rhetoric seems to have been quickly separated from the political art, as being a different kind, though ministering to it.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ναί.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
ΞΕ. τί δὲ περὶ τῆς τοιᾶσδʼ αὖ δυνάμεως διανοητέον;
STRANGER: But what must we think about this other kind of power?
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ποίας;
YOUNG SOCRATES: What kind?
ΞΕ. τῆς ὡς πολεμητέον ἑκάστοις οἷς ἂν προελώμεθα πολεμεῖν, εἴτε αὐτὴν ἄτεχνον εἴτε ἔντεχνον ἐροῦμεν;
STRANGER: That of how to wage war against each of those whom we may choose to wage war against; shall we say this itself is without art or with art?
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. καὶ πῶς ἂν ἄτεχνον διανοηθεῖμεν, ἥν γε ἡ στρατηγικὴ καὶ πᾶσα ἡ πολεμικὴ πρᾶξις πράττει;
YOUNG SOCRATES: And how could we think of it as without art, which generalship and the whole practice of war carry out?
ΞΕ. τὴν δὲ εἴτε πολεμητέον εἴτε διὰ φιλίας ἀπαλλακτέον οἵαν τε καὶ ἐπιστήμονα διαβουλεύσασθαι, ταύτης ἑτέραν ὑπολάβωμεν ἢ τὴν αὐτὴν ταύτῃ;
STRANGER: But as for the power to deliberate with knowledge whether we ought to wage war or to depart from it through friendship, shall we assume this is different from that one or the same?
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τοῖς πρόσθεν ἀναγκαῖον ἑπομένοισιν ἑτέραν.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Following what was said before, it must necessarily be different.