§302ΞΕ. θαυμάζομεν δῆτα, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἐν ταῖς τοιαύταις πολιτείαις ὅσα συμβαίνει γίγνεσθαι κακὰ καὶ ὅσα συμβήσεται, τοιαύτης τῆς κρηπῖδος ὑποκειμένης αὐταῖς, τῆς κατὰ γράμματα καὶ ἔθη μὴ μετὰ ἐπιστήμης πραττούσης τὰς πράξεις, ᾗ ἑτέρα προσχρωμένη παντὶ κατάδηλος ὡς πάντʼ ἂν διολέσειε τὰ ταύτῃ γιγνόμενα;
STRANGER: Do we wonder then, Socrates, at all the evils that happen to arise in such constitutions, and all that will arise, when such a foundation is laid beneath them—that which acts according to written rules and customs without knowledge, where another foundation using it would clearly destroy all that arises in this way?
ἢ ἐκεῖνο ἡμῖν θαυμαστέον μᾶλλον, ὡς ἰσχυρόν τι πόλις ἐστὶ φύσει;
Or is that rather what we should wonder at, namely, how strong a city is by nature?
πάσχουσαι γὰρ δὴ τοιαῦτα αἱ πόλεις νῦν χρόνον ἀπέραντον, ὅμως ἔνιαί τινες αὐτῶν μόνιμοί τέ εἰσι καὶ οὐκ ἀνατρέπονται· πολλαὶ μὴν ἐνίοτε καὶ καθάπερ πλοῖα καταδυόμεναι διόλλυνται καὶ διολώλασι καὶ ἔτι διολοῦνται διὰ τὴν τῶν κυβερνητῶν καὶ ναυτῶν μοχθηρίαν τῶν περὶ τὰ μέγιστα μεγίστην ἄγνοιαν εἰληφότων, οἳ περὶ τὰ πολιτικὰ κατʼ οὐδὲν γιγνώσκοντες ἡγοῦνται κατὰ πάντα σαφέστατα πασῶν ἐπιστημῶν ταύτην εἰληφέναι.
For though cities suffer such things for an endless time, nevertheless some of them remain stable and are not overturned; yet many, sometimes like sinking ships, are destroyed and have perished and will still perish because of the wickedness of the captains and sailors, who have acquired the greatest ignorance concerning the greatest things, and who, knowing nothing about political matters, think they have acquired this science most clearly of all in every respect.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ἀληθέστατα.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Most true.
ΞΕ. τίς οὖν δὴ τῶν οὐκ ὀρθῶν πολιτειῶν τούτων ἥκιστα χαλεπὴ συζῆν, πασῶν χαλεπῶν οὐσῶν, καὶ τίς βαρυτάτη;
STRANGER: Which, then, of these incorrect constitutions is the least difficult to live with, all of them being difficult, and which is the most oppressive?
δεῖ τι κατιδεῖν ἡμᾶς, καίπερ πρός γε τὸ νῦν προτεθὲν ἡμῖν πάρεργον λεγόμενον;
Must we look into this, even though it is said as a side-issue to what is now proposed?
οὐ μὴν ἀλλʼ εἴς γε τὸ ὅλον ἴσως ἅπανθʼ ἕνεκα τοῦ τοιούτου πάντες δρῶμεν χάριν.
And yet, on the whole, perhaps we all do everything for the sake of such a thing.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. δεῖ· πῶς δʼ οὔ;
YOUNG SOCRATES: We must; how indeed could we not?
ΞΕ. τὴν αὐτὴν τοίνυν φάθι τριῶν οὐσῶν χαλεπὴν διαφερόντως γίγνεσθαι καὶ ῥᾴστην.
STRANGER: Say, then, that the same constitution becomes exceedingly difficult and easiest, since there are three.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πῶς φῄς;
YOUNG SOCRATES: How do you mean?
ΞΕ. οὐκ ἄλλως, πλὴν μοναρχίαν φημὶ καὶ ὀλίγων ἀρχὴν καὶ πολλῶν, εἶναι τρεῖς ταύτας ἡμῖν λεγομένας τοῦ νῦν ἐπικεχυμένου λόγου κατʼ ἀρχάς.
STRANGER: In no other way than that I mean monarchy, the rule of the few, and the rule of the many; these were the three spoken of by us at the beginning of the discourse that has now overflowed.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ἦσαν γὰρ οὖν.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes, indeed they were.
ΞΕ. ταύτας τοίνυν δίχα τέμνοντες μίαν ἑκάστην ἓξ ποιῶμεν, τὴν ὀρθὴν χωρὶς ἀποκρίναντες τούτων ἑβδόμην.
STRANGER: Cutting these, then, in two, let us make each one into six, separating the correct one from these as a seventh.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πῶς;
YOUNG SOCRATES: How?
ΞΕ. ἐκ μὲν τῆς μοναρχίας βασιλικὴν καὶ τυραννικήν, ἐκ δʼ αὖ τῶν μὴ πολλῶν τήν τε εὐώνυμον ἔφαμεν ἀριστοκρατίαν καὶ ὀλιγαρχίαν· ἐκ δʼ αὖ τῶν πολλῶν τότε μὲν ἁπλῆν ἐπονομάζοντες ἐτίθεμεν δημοκρατίαν, νῦν δʼ αὖ καὶ ταύτην ἡμῖν θετέον ἐστὶ διπλῆν.
STRANGER: From monarchy we get kingly and tyrannical; and from the rule of the not-many we said there is the well-named aristocracy and oligarchy; and from the rule of the many, we then established democracy under a single name, but now we must also establish this as double.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πῶς δή;
YOUNG SOCRATES: How indeed?
καὶ τίνι διαιροῦντες ταύτην;
And by what dividing it?
ΞΕ. οὐδὲν διαφέροντι τῶν ἄλλων, οὐδʼ εἰ τοὔνομα ἤδη διπλοῦν ἐστι ταύτης· ἀλλὰ τό γε κατὰ νόμους ἄρχειν καὶ παρανόμως ἔστι καὶ ταύτῃ καὶ ταῖς ἄλλαις.
STRANGER: By nothing different from the others, even if the name of this is not already double; but ruling according to the laws and unlawfully exists in this as well as in the others.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ἔστι γὰρ οὖν.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes, indeed it does.
ΞΕ. τότε μὲν τοίνυν τὴν ὀρθὴν ζητοῦσι τοῦτο τὸ τμῆμα οὐκ ἦν χρήσιμον, ὡς ἐν τοῖς πρόσθεν ἀπεδείξαμεν· ἐπειδὴ δὲ ἐξείλομεν ἐκείνην, τὰς δʼ ἄλλας ἔθεμεν ἀναγκαίας, ἐν ταύταις δὴ τὸ παράνομον καὶ ἔννομον ἑκάστην διχοτομεῖ τούτων.
STRANGER: At that time, then, when we were seeking the correct constitution, this division was not useful, as we showed in what went before; but since we have set that one apart, and established the others as necessary, in these indeed the unlawful and the lawful divide each of them in two.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ἔοικεν τούτου νῦν ῥηθέντος τοῦ λόγου.
YOUNG SOCRATES: It seems so, from what has now been said.
ΞΕ. μοναρχία τοίνυν ζευχθεῖσα μὲν ἐν γράμμασιν ἀγαθοῖς, οὓς νόμους λέγομεν, ἀρίστη πασῶν τῶν ἕξ· ἄνομος δὲ χαλεπὴ καὶ βαρυτάτη συνοικῆσαι.
STRANGER: Monarchy, then, when yoked with good written rules, which we call laws, is the best of all the six; but without laws, it is difficult and most oppressive to live with.
§303ΝΕ. ΣΩ. κινδυνεύει.
YOUNG SOCRATES: It seems so.
ΞΕ. τὴν δέ γε τῶν μὴ πολλῶν, ὥσπερ ἑνὸς καὶ πλήθους τὸ ὀλίγον μέσον, οὕτως ἡγησώμεθα μέσην ἐπʼ ἀμφότερα· τὴν δʼ αὖ τοῦ πλήθους κατὰ πάντα ἀσθενῆ καὶ μηδὲν μήτε ἀγαθὸν μήτε κακὸν μέγα δυναμένην ὡς πρὸς τὰς ἄλλας διὰ τὸ τὰς ἀρχὰς ἐν ταύτῃ διανενεμῆσθαι κατὰ σμικρὰ εἰς πολλούς.
STRANGER: But the rule of the not-many, just as the few is middle between the one and the multitude, so let us consider it middle in both directions; and that of the multitude, on the other hand, weak in all respects and capable of nothing great, either good or bad, as compared to the others, because the offices in this are distributed in small parts among many.
διὸ γέγονε πασῶν μὲν νομίμων τῶν πολιτειῶν οὐσῶν τούτων χειρίστη, παρανόμων δὲ οὐσῶν συμπασῶν βελτίστη·
Therefore, when all these constitutions are lawful, it has become the worst of them, but when they are all unlawful, it is the best.
καὶ ἀκολάστων μὲν πασῶν οὐσῶν ἐν δημοκρατίᾳ νικᾷ ζῆν, κοσμίων δʼ οὐσῶν ἥκιστα ἐν ταύτῃ βιωτέον, ἐν τῇ πρώτῃ δὲ πολὺ πρῶτόν τε καὶ ἄριστον, πλὴν τῆς ἑβδόμης· πασῶν γὰρ ἐκείνην γε ἐκκριτέον, οἷον θεὸν ἐξ ἀνθρώπων, ἐκ τῶν ἄλλων πολιτειῶν.
And when all are lawless, living in a democracy wins, but when they are orderly, one should least of all live in this, while in the first it is by far the first and best, except for the seventh; for that one must be set apart from all the other constitutions, like a god from men.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. φαίνεται ταῦθʼ οὕτω συμβαίνειν τε καὶ γίγνεσθαι, καὶ ποιητέον ᾗπερ λέγεις.
YOUNG SOCRATES: These things seem to turn out and happen in this way, and we must do as you say.
ΞΕ. οὐκοῦν δὴ καὶ τοὺς κοινωνοὺς τούτων τῶν πολιτειῶν πασῶν πλὴν τῆς ἐπιστήμονος ἀφαιρετέον ὡς οὐκ ὄντας πολιτικοὺς ἀλλὰ στασιαστικούς, καὶ εἰδώλων μεγίστων προστάτας ὄντας καὶ αὐτοὺς εἶναι τοιούτους, μεγίστους δὲ ὄντας μιμητὰς καὶ γόητας μεγίστους γίγνεσθαι τῶν σοφιστῶν σοφιστάς.
STRANGER: Must we not, then, also remove the participants in all these constitutions except the knowledgeable one, as not being statesmen but faction-leaders, and since they are guardians of the greatest images, they themselves are such, and being the greatest imitators and wizards, they become the greatest sophists of the sophists?
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. κινδυνεύει τοῦτο εἰς τοὺς πολιτικοὺς λεγομένους περιεστράφθαι τὸ ῥῆμα ὀρθότατα.
YOUNG SOCRATES: This phrase seems to have turned round most correctly upon those who are called statesmen.
ΞΕ. εἶεν· τοῦτο μὲν ἀτεχνῶς ἡμῖν ὥσπερ δρᾶμα, καθάπερ ἐρρήθη νυνδὴ Κενταυρικὸν ὁρᾶσθαι καὶ Σατυρικόν τινα θίασον, ὃν δὴ χωριστέον ἀπὸ πολιτικῆς εἴη τέχνης· νῦν δʼ οὕτω πάνυ μόγις ἐχωρίσθη.
STRANGER: Well then; this has been to us literally like a play, just as was said just now, to see a Centaurlike and Satyr-like troop, which indeed would have to be separated from the political art; and now it has been separated thus with great difficulty.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. φαίνεται.
YOUNG SOCRATES: It seems so.
ΞΕ. τούτου δέ γʼ ἕτερον ἔτι χαλεπώτερον λείπεται τῷ συγγενές τε ὁμοῦ τʼ εἶναι μᾶλλον τῷ βασιλικῷ γένει καὶ δυσκαταμαθητότερον· καί μοι φαινόμεθα τοῖς τὸν χρυσὸν καθαίρουσι πάθος ὅμοιον πεπονθέναι.
STRANGER: But another thing still more difficult than this remains, because it is both more akin to the kingly race and harder to understand; and we seem to have suffered an experience similar to those who refine gold.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πῶς;
YOUNG SOCRATES: How?
ΞΕ. Γῆν που καὶ λίθους καὶ πόλλʼ ἄττα ἕτερα ἀποκρίνουσι καὶ ἐκεῖνοι πρῶτον οἱ δημιουργοί· μετὰ δὲ ταῦτα λείπεται συμμεμειγμένα τὰ συγγενῆ τοῦ χρυσοῦ τίμια καὶ πυρὶ μόνον ἀφαιρετά, χαλκὸς καὶ ἄργυρος, ἔστι δʼ ὅτε καὶ ἀδάμας, ἃ μετὰ βασάνων ταῖς ἑψήσεσι μόγις ἀφαιρεθέντα τὸν λεγόμενον ἀκήρατον χρυσὸν εἴασεν ἡμᾶς ἰδεῖν αὐτὸν μόνον ἐφʼ ἑαυτοῦ.
STRANGER: Those craftsmen also first separate earth and stones and many other things; and after this there remain mixed together the valuable things akin to gold and removable only by fire, copper and silver, and sometimes also adamant, which, being removed with difficulty by smeltings with tests, leave us to see the so-called pure gold itself alone by itself.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. λέγεται γὰρ οὖν δὴ ταῦτα οὕτω γίγνεσθαι.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes, indeed these things are said to happen in this way.