§284ΞΕ. εἰ πρὸς μηδὲν ἕτερον τὴν τοῦ μείζονος ἐάσει τις φύσιν ἢ πρὸς τοὔλαττον, οὐκ ἔσται ποτὲ πρὸς τὸ μέτριον· ἦ γάρ;
STRANGER: If someone allows the nature of the greater to be relative to nothing other than the less, it will never be relative to the moderate; is that not so?
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. οὕτως.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Quite so.
ΞΕ. οὐκοῦν τὰς τέχνας τε αὐτὰς καὶ τἆργα αὐτῶν σύμπαντα διολοῦμεν τούτῳ τῷ λόγῳ, καὶ δὴ καὶ τὴν ζητουμένην νῦν πολιτικὴν καὶ τὴν ῥηθεῖσαν ὑφαντικὴν ἀφανιοῦμεν;
STRANGER: Shall we not then destroy the arts themselves and all their works by this argument, and indeed also make disappear both the statesmanship now being sought and the weaving we mentioned?
ἅπασαι γὰρ αἱ τοιαῦταί που τὸ τοῦ μετρίου πλέον καὶ ἔλαττον οὐχ ὡς οὐκ ὂν ἀλλʼ ὡς ὂν χαλεπὸν περὶ τὰς πράξεις παραφυλάττουσι, καὶ τούτῳ δὴ τῷ τρόπῳ τὸ μέτρον σῴζουσαι πάντα ἀγαθὰ καὶ καλὰ ἀπεργάζονται.
For surely all such arts guard against excess and deficiency relative to the moderate, not as non-existent but as being something difficult in relation to actions, and preserving measure in this very way, they produce all things good and beautiful.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τί μήν;
YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course.
ΞΕ. οὐκοῦν ἂν τὴν πολιτικὴν ἀφανίσωμεν, ἄπορος ἡμῖν ἡ μετὰ τοῦτο ἔσται ζήτησις τῆς βασιλικῆς ἐπιστήμης;
STRANGER: Then if we make statesmanship disappear, will our subsequent search for the kingly science be impossible?
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. καὶ μάλα.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very much so.
ΞΕ. πότερον οὖν, καθάπερ ἐν τῷ σοφιστῇ προσηναγκάσαμεν εἶναι τὸ μὴ ὄν, ἐπειδὴ κατὰ τοῦτο διέφυγεν ἡμᾶς ὁ λόγος, οὕτω καὶ νῦν τὸ πλέον αὖ καὶ ἔλαττον μετρητὰ προσαναγκαστέον γίγνεσθαι μὴ πρὸς ἄλληλα μόνον ἀλλὰ καὶ πρὸς τὴν τοῦ μετρίου γένεσιν;
STRANGER: Shall we then, just as in the Sophist we forced "non-being" to exist, because our argument escaped us in that respect, so also now force "the more" and "the less" in turn to become measurable not only relative to each other but also relative to the production of the moderate?
οὐ γὰρ δὴ δυνατόν γε οὔτε πολιτικὸν οὔτʼ ἄλλον τινὰ τῶν περὶ τὰς πράξεις ἐπιστήμονα ἀναμφισβητήτως γεγονέναι τούτου μὴ συνομολογηθέντος.
For indeed, it is not possible for either a statesman or anyone else knowledgeable about actions to have indisputably come to be, unless this has been agreed upon.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ νῦν ὅτι μάλιστα χρὴ ταὐτὸν ποιεῖν.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Therefore we must do exactly the same now as well.
ΞΕ. πλέον, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἔτι τοῦτο τὸ ἔργον ἢ ʼκεῖνο— καίτοι κἀκείνου γε μεμνήμεθα τὸ μῆκος ὅσον ἦν—ἀλλʼ ὑποτίθεσθαι μὲν τὸ τοιόνδε περὶ αὐτῶν καὶ μάλα δίκαιον.
STRANGER: This task is even greater, Socrates, than that one—and yet we remember how great the length of that one was—but to assume the following concerning them is indeed very just.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τὸ ποῖον;
YOUNG SOCRATES: What sort of assumption?
ΞΕ. ὥς ποτε δεήσει τοῦ νῦν λεχθέντος πρὸς τὴν περὶ αὐτὸ τἀκριβὲς ἀπόδειξιν.
STRANGER: That at some time we shall need what has now been said for the demonstration concerning accuracy itself.
ὅτι δὲ πρὸς τὰ νῦν καλῶς καὶ ἱκανῶς δείκνυται, δοκεῖ μοι βοηθεῖν μεγαλοπρεπῶς ἡμῖν οὗτος ὁ λόγος, ὡς ἄρα ἡγητέον ὁμοίως τὰς τέχνας πάσας εἶναι, μεῖζόν τε ἅμα καὶ ἔλαττον μετρεῖσθαι μὴ πρὸς ἄλληλα μόνον ἀλλὰ καὶ πρὸς τὴν τοῦ μετρίου γένεσιν.
But as for showing adequately and well for our present purposes, this argument seems to me to assist us magnificently, namely, that we must consider all arts to exist in like manner, and that the greater and the less are measured at the same time not only relative to each other but also relative to the production of the moderate.
τούτου τε γὰρ ὄντος ἐκεῖνα ἔστι, κἀκείνων οὐσῶν ἔστι καὶ τοῦτο, μὴ δὲ ὄντος ποτέρου τούτων οὐδέτερον αὐτῶν ἔσται ποτέ.
For when this exists, those exist, and when those exist, this also exists, but if either of these does not exist, neither of them will ever exist.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τοῦτο μὲν ὀρθῶς· ἀλλὰ τί δὴ τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο;
YOUNG SOCRATES: This indeed is correct; but what indeed comes after this?
ΞΕ. δῆλον ὅτι διαιροῖμεν ἂν τὴν μετρητικήν, καθάπερ ἐρρήθη, ταύτῃ δίχα τέμνοντες, ἓν μὲν τιθέντες αὐτῆς μόριον συμπάσας τέχνας ὁπόσαι τὸν ἀριθμὸν καὶ μήκη καὶ βάθη καὶ πλάτη καὶ ταχυτῆτας πρὸς τοὐναντίον μετροῦσιν, τὸ δὲ ἕτερον, ὁπόσαι πρὸς τὸ μέτριον καὶ τὸ πρέπον καὶ τὸν καιρὸν καὶ τὸ δέον καὶ πάνθʼ ὁπόσα εἰς τὸ μέσον ἀπῳκίσθη τῶν ἐσχάτων.
STRANGER: Clearly we should divide the art of measurement, cutting it in two in this way as was said: placing as one part of it all the arts which measure number, lengths, depths, breadths, and speeds in relation to their opposite; and as the other part, all those which measure in relation to the moderate, the fitting, the opportune, the needful, and all such things as have their home in the middle, away from the extremes.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. καὶ μέγα γε ἑκάτερον τμῆμα εἶπες, καὶ πολὺ διαφέρον ἀλλήλοιν.
YOUNG SOCRATES: And you have spoken of each division as being great, and differing greatly from one other.