§182ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἐπειδὴ κινεῖσθαι αὐτὰ δεῖ, τὸ δὲ μὴ κινεῖσθαι μὴ ἐνεῖναι μηδενί, πάντα δὴ πᾶσαν κίνησιν ἀεὶ κινεῖται.
SOCRATES: Therefore, since these things must move, and not moving cannot belong to anything, all things must always be moving in every kind of motion.
ΘΕΟ. ἀνάγκη.
THEODORUS: Necessarily so.
ΣΩ. σκόπει δή μοι τόδε αὐτῶν· τῆς θερμότητος ἢ λευκότητος ἢ ὁτουοῦν γένεσιν οὐχ οὕτω πως ἐλέγομεν φάναι αὐτούς, φέρεσθαι ἕκαστον τούτων ἅμα αἰσθήσει μεταξὺ τοῦ ποιοῦντός τε καὶ πάσχοντος, καὶ τὸ μὲν πάσχον αἰσθητικὸν ἀλλʼ οὐκ αἴσθησιν γίγνεσθαι, τὸ δὲ ποιοῦν ποιόν τι ἀλλʼ οὐ ποιότητα;
SOCRATES: Consider, then, this point of theirs for me: did we not say they assert that the generation of heat or whiteness or anything whatever occurs in this way, namely, that each of these is carried along together with a perception between the active and the passive elements, and the passive element becomes percipient but not a perception, while the active element becomes of a certain quality but not a quality?
ἴσως οὖν ἡ
ποιότης
ἅμα ἀλλόκοτόν τε φαίνεται ὄνομα καὶ οὐ μανθάνεις ἁθρόον λεγόμενον· κατὰ μέρη οὖν ἄκουε.
Perhaps, then, "quality" appears to you to be a strange word, and you do not understand it when spoken of all at once; so listen to it in parts.
τὸ γὰρ ποιοῦν οὔτε θερμότης οὔτε λευκότης, θερμὸν δὲ καὶ λευκὸν γίγνεται, καὶ τἆλλα οὕτω·
For the active element does not become heat or whiteness, but hot and white, and so with the rest.
μέμνησαι γάρ που ἐν τοῖς πρόσθεν ὅτι οὕτως ἐλέγομεν, ἓν μηδὲν αὐτὸ καθʼ αὑτὸ εἶναι, μηδʼ αὖ τὸ ποιοῦν ἢ πάσχον, ἀλλʼ ἐξ ἀμφοτέρων πρὸς ἄλληλα συγγιγνομένων τὰς αἰσθήσεις καὶ τὰ αἰσθητὰ ἀποτίκτοντα τὰ μὲν ποιʼ ἄττα γίγνεσθαι, τὰ δὲ αἰσθανόμενα.
For you surely remember that in the foregoing discussion we said in this way, that nothing is one itself by itself, nor indeed the active or the passive element, but from both of them coming together with one another, generating perceptions and perceptible things, some become of certain qualities, and others become percipient.
ΘΕΟ. μέμνημαι· πῶς δʼ οὔ;
THEODORUS: I do remember; how could I not?
ΣΩ. τὰ μὲν τοίνυν ἄλλα χαίρειν ἐάσωμεν, εἴτε ἄλλως εἴτε οὕτως λέγουσιν· οὗ δʼ ἕνεκα λέγομεν, τοῦτο μόνον φυλάττωμεν, ἐρωτῶντες· Κινεῖται καὶ ῥεῖ, ὥς φατε, τὰ πάντα;
SOCRATES: Let us then let the other matters go, whether they say them in this way or otherwise; let us keep only to that for the sake of which we are speaking, by asking: "Are all things moving and flowing, as you say?
ἦ γάρ; ΘΕΟ. ναί.
Is it so?" THEODORUS: Yes.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἀμφοτέρας ἃς διειλόμεθα κινήσεις, φερόμενά τε καὶ ἀλλοιούμενα;
SOCRATES: Surely, then, they are moving in both ways that we distinguished, both being carried along and altered?
ΘΕΟ. πῶς δʼ οὔ; εἴπερ γε δὴ τελέως κινήσεται.
THEODORUS: How could they not, if indeed they are to move completely?
ΣΩ. εἰ μὲν τοίνυν ἐφέρετο μόνον, ἠλλοιοῦτο δὲ μή, εἴχομεν ἄν που εἰπεῖν οἷα ἄττα ῥεῖ τὰ φερόμενα· ἢ πῶς λέγομεν;
SOCRATES: If then they were only carried along, but not altered, we would surely be able to say of what sort the things carried along are flowing; or how do we say it?
ΘΕΟ. οὕτως.
THEODORUS: In this way.
ΣΩ. ἐπειδὴ δὲ οὐδὲ τοῦτο μένει, τὸ λευκὸν ῥεῖν τὸ ῥέον, ἀλλὰ μεταβάλλει, ὥστε καὶ αὐτοῦ τούτου εἶναι ῥοήν, τῆς λευκότητος, καὶ μεταβολὴν εἰς ἄλλην χρόαν, ἵνα μὴ ἁλῷ ταύτῃ μένον, ἆρά ποτε οἷόν τέ τι προσειπεῖν χρῶμα, ὥστε καὶ ὀρθῶς προσαγορεύειν;
SOCRATES: But since not even this remains constant, that the flowing white flows as white, but it changes, so that there is a flow of this very thing, whiteness, and a change into another color, lest it be caught remaining in this state, is it ever possible to designate any color, so as to address it correctly?
ΘΕΟ. καὶ τίς μηχανή, ὦ Σώκρατες;
THEODORUS: And what way is there, Socrates?
ἢ ἄλλο γέ τι τῶν τοιούτων, εἴπερ ἀεὶ λέγοντος ὑπεξέρχεται ἅτε δὴ ῥέον;
Or any other of such things, if indeed it always slips away from the speaker, inasmuch as it is flowing?
ΣΩ. τί δὲ περὶ αἰσθήσεως ἐροῦμεν ὁποιασοῦν, οἷον τῆς τοῦ ὁρᾶν ἢ ἀκούειν;
SOCRATES: And what shall we say about any perception whatsoever, such as that of seeing or hearing?
μένειν ποτὲ ἐν αὐτῷ τῷ ὁρᾶν ἢ ἀκούειν;
Does it ever remain constant in seeing or hearing itself?
ΘΕΟ. οὔκουν δεῖ γε, εἴπερ πάντα κινεῖται.
THEODORUS: It certainly must not, if indeed all things are moving.
ΣΩ. οὔτε ἄρα ὁρᾶν προσρητέον τι μᾶλλον ἢ μὴ ὁρᾶν, οὐδέ τινʼ ἄλλην αἴσθησιν μᾶλλον ἢ μή, πάντων γε πάντως κινουμένων.
SOCRATES: Therefore, we must not call something seeing any more than not seeing, nor indeed any other perception any more than not, since all things are moving in every way.
ΘΕΟ. οὐ γὰρ οὖν.
THEODORUS: Indeed not.
ΣΩ. καὶ μὴν αἴσθησίς γε ἐπιστήμη, ὡς ἔφαμεν ἐγώ τε καὶ Θεαίτητος.
SOCRATES: And yet perception is knowledge, as I and Theaetetus said.
ΘΕΟ. ἦν ταῦτα.
THEODORUS: That was so.
ΣΩ. οὐδὲν ἄρα ἐπιστήμην μᾶλλον ἢ μὴ ἐπιστήμην ἀπεκρινάμεθα ἐρωτώμενοι ὅτι ἐστὶν ἐπιστήμη.
SOCRATES: Therefore, when asked what knowledge is, we answered with something that is no more knowledge than not knowledge.
§183ΘΕΟ. ἐοίκατε.
THEODORUS: It seems so.
ΣΩ. καλὸν ἂν ἡμῖν συμβαίνοι τὸ ἐπανόρθωμα τῆς ἀποκρίσεως, προθυμηθεῖσιν ἀποδεῖξαι ὅτι πάντα κινεῖται, ἵνα δὴ ἐκείνη ἡ ἀπόκρισις ὀρθὴ φανῇ.
SOCRATES: Fine indeed would be the correction of our answer, when we were eager to demonstrate that all things are moving, so that that answer might appear correct.
τὸ δʼ, ὡς ἔοικεν, ἐφάνη, εἰ πάντα κινεῖται, πᾶσα ἀπόκρισις, περὶ ὅτου ἄν τις ἀποκρίνηται, ὁμοίως ὀρθὴ εἶναι, οὕτω τʼ ἔχειν φάναι καὶ μὴ οὕτω, εἰ δὲ βούλει, γίγνεσθαι, ἵνα μὴ στήσωμεν αὐτοὺς τῷ λόγῳ.
But, as it seems, it has appeared that, if all things are moving, every answer, about whatever one may answer, is equally correct—to say that it is thus and not thus, or, if you prefer, that it becomes, so that we may not make them stand still by our language.
ΘΕΟ. ὀρθῶς λέγεις.
THEODORUS: You speak correctly.
ΣΩ. πλήν γε, ὦ Θεόδωρε, ὅτι
οὕτω
τε εἶπον καὶ
οὐχ οὕτω. δεῖ δὲ οὐδὲ τοῦτο τὸ
οὕτω
λέγειν—οὐδὲ γὰρ ἂν ἔτι κινοῖτο τὸ
οὕτω
—οὐδʼ αὖ
μὴ οὕτω
— οὐδὲ γὰρ τοῦτο κίνησις—ἀλλά τινʼ ἄλλην φωνὴν θετέον τοῖς τὸν λόγον τοῦτον λέγουσιν, ὡς νῦν γε πρὸς τὴν αὑτῶν ὑπόθεσιν οὐκ ἔχουσι ῥήματα, εἰ μὴ ἄρα τὸ
οὐδʼ οὕτως
μάλιστα ἂν αὐτοῖς ἁρμόττοι, ἄπειρον λεγόμενον.
SOCRATES: Except, Theodorus, that I said both "thus" and "not thus." But we must not even say this word "thus"—for "thus" would no longer be moving—nor again "not thus"—for this is not motion either. But some other language must be established for those who speak this doctrine, since as it is now, they have no words for their own hypothesis, unless indeed "not even thus" would fit them best, being spoken without limit.
ΘΕΟ. οἰκειοτάτη γοῦν διάλεκτος αὕτη αὐτοῖς.
THEODORUS: This is indeed the most appropriate dialect for them.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν, ὦ Θεόδωρε, τοῦ τε σοῦ ἑταίρου ἀπηλλάγμεθα, καὶ οὔπω συγχωροῦμεν αὐτῷ πάντʼ ἄνδρα πάντων χρημάτων μέτρον εἶναι, ἂν μὴ φρόνιμός τις ᾖ· ἐπιστήμην τε αἴσθησιν οὐ συγχωρησόμεθα κατά γε τὴν τοῦ πάντα κινεῖσθαι μέθοδον, εἰ μή πως ἄλλως Θεαίτητος ὅδε λέγει.
SOCRATES: Therefore, Theodorus, we are rid of your companion, and we do not yet concede to him that every man is the measure of all things, unless he is a prudent person; nor shall we concede that perception is knowledge, at least according to the method of all things moving, unless indeed this Theaetetus here says otherwise.
ΘΕΟ. ἄριστʼ εἴρηκας, ὦ Σώκρατες· τούτων γὰρ περανθέντων καὶ ἐμὲ ἔδει ἀπηλλάχθαι σοι ἀποκρινόμενον κατὰ τὰς συνθήκας, ἐπειδὴ τὸ περὶ τοῦ Πρωταγόρου λόγου τέλος σχοίη.
THEODORUS: You have spoken best, Socrates; for these things being concluded, I too ought to be rid of answering you according to our agreement, since the discussion concerning the doctrine of Protagoras has reached its end.
ΘΕΑΙ. μὴ πρίν γʼ ἄν, ὦ Θεόδωρε, Σωκράτης τε καὶ σὺ τοὺς φάσκοντας αὖ τὸ πᾶν ἑστάναι διέλθητε, ὥσπερ ἄρτι προύθεσθε.
THEAETETUS: Not, indeed, before, Theodorus, you and Socrates go through those who on the contrary assert that the whole stands still, just as you proposed just now.
ΘΕΟ. νέος ὤν, ὦ Θεαίτητε, τοὺς πρεσβυτέρους ἀδικεῖν διδάσκεις ὁμολογίας παραβαίνοντας;
THEODORUS: Being young, Theaetetus, do you teach your elders to do injustice by violating agreements?
ἀλλὰ παρασκευάζου ὅπως τῶν ἐπιλοίπων Σωκράτει δώσεις λόγον.
But prepare yourself so that you may give an account to Socrates of the remaining matters.
ΘΕΑΙ. ἐάνπερ γε βούληται.
THEAETETUS: If indeed he wishes.
ἥδιστα μεντἂν ἤκουσα περὶ ὧν λέγω.
I would, however, have most gladly heard about the things I am speaking of.
ΘΕΟ.
Ἱππέας εἰς πεδίον
προκαλῇ Σωκράτη εἰς λόγους προκαλούμενος· ἐρώτα οὖν καὶ ἀκούσῃ.
THEODORUS: You challenge Socrates "cavalry into the plain" in challenging him to discussions; ask, then, and you shall hear.
ΣΩ. ἀλλά μοι δοκῶ, ὦ Θεόδωρε, περί γε ὧν κελεύει Θεαίτητος οὐ πείσεσθαι αὐτῷ.
SOCRATES: But I think, Theodorus, that concerning the things Theaetetus commands, I shall not obey him.
ΘΕΟ. τί δὴ οὖν οὐ πείσεσθαι;
THEODORUS: Why indeed will you not obey?