§180ΘΕΟ. παντάπασι μὲν οὖν.
THEODORUS: Absolutely so.
καὶ γάρ, ὦ Σώκρατες, περὶ τούτων τῶν Ἡρακλειτείων ἤ, ὥσπερ σὺ λέγεις, Ὁμηρείων καὶ ἔτι παλαιοτέρων, αὐτοῖς μὲν τοῖς περὶ τὴν Ἔφεσον, ὅσοι προσποιοῦνται ἔμπειροι, οὐδὲν μᾶλλον οἷόν τε διαλεχθῆναι ἢ τοῖς οἰστρῶσιν.
For, Socrates, regarding these Heracliteans, or, as you say, Homerians and those still more ancient, it is no more possible to converse with those around Ephesus themselves who pretend to be experts, than with people driven mad by horseflies.
ἀτεχνῶς γὰρ κατὰ τὰ συγγράμματα φέρονται, τὸ δʼ ἐπιμεῖναι ἐπὶ λόγῳ καὶ ἐρωτήματι καὶ ἡσυχίως ἐν μέρει ἀποκρίνασθαι καὶ ἐρέσθαι ἧττον αὐτοῖς ἔνι ἢ τὸ μηδέν· μᾶλλον δὲ ὑπερβάλλει τὸ οὐδʼ οὐδὲν πρὸς τὸ μηδὲ σμικρὸν ἐνεῖναι τοῖς ἀνδράσιν ἡσυχίας.
For they are literally carried along according to their writings, and to stay with an argument and a question, and quietly in turn to answer and to ask, is less in them than nothing; or rather, the expression "not even nothing" is an exaggeration compared to the fact that there is not even a tiny bit of quietness in these men.
ἀλλʼ ἄν τινά τι ἔρῃ, ὥσπερ ἐκ φαρέτρας ῥηματίσκια αἰνιγματώδη ἀνασπῶντες ἀποτοξεύουσι, κἂν τούτου ζητῇς λόγον λαβεῖν τί εἴρηκεν, ἑτέρῳ πεπλήξῃ καινῶς μετωνομασμένῳ.
But if you ask anyone anything, like pulling out puzzling little phrases from a quiver they shoot them off, and if you seek to get an explanation of this, of what he has said, you will be struck by another newly renamed phrase.
περανεῖς δὲ οὐδέποτε οὐδὲν πρὸς οὐδένα αὐτῶν· οὐδέ γε ἐκεῖνοι αὐτοὶ πρὸς ἀλλήλους, ἀλλʼ εὖ πάνυ φυλάττουσι τὸ μηδὲν βέβαιον ἐᾶν εἶναι μήτʼ ἐν λόγῳ μήτʼ ἐν ταῖς αὑτῶν ψυχαῖς, ἡγούμενοι, ὡς ἐμοὶ δοκεῖ, αὐτὸ στάσιμον εἶναι· τούτῳ δὲ πάνυ πολεμοῦσιν, καὶ καθʼ ὅσον δύνανται πανταχόθεν ἐκβάλλουσιν.
You will never bring anything to a conclusion with any of them; nor indeed do they themselves with one another, but they guard very well to allow nothing to be stable either in an argument or in their own souls, thinking, as it seems to me, that stability itself is a stationary thing; and they fight against this very hard, and as far as they are able, they expel it from everywhere.
ΣΩ. ἴσως, ὦ Θεόδωρε, τοὺς ἄνδρας μαχομένους ἑώρακας, εἰρηνεύουσιν δὲ οὐ συγγέγονας· οὐ γὰρ σοὶ ἑταῖροί εἰσιν.
SOCRATES: Perhaps, Theodorus, you have seen these men fighting, but you have not been with them when they are at peace; for they are not your companions.
ἀλλʼ οἶμαι τὰ τοιαῦτα τοῖς μαθηταῖς ἐπὶ σχολῆς φράζουσιν, οὓς ἂν βούλωνται ὁμοίους αὑτοῖς ποιῆσαι.
But I suppose they tell such things to their disciples at leisure, whom they wish to make like themselves.
ΘΕΟ. ποίοις μαθηταῖς, ὦ δαιμόνιε;
THEODORUS: What disciples, my dear man?
οὐδὲ γίγνεται τῶν τοιούτων ἕτερος ἑτέρου μαθητής, ἀλλʼ αὐτόματοι ἀναφύονται ὁπόθεν ἂν τύχῃ ἕκαστος αὐτῶν ἐνθουσιάσας, καὶ τὸν ἕτερον ὁ ἕτερος οὐδὲν ἡγεῖται εἰδέναι.
No one becomes a disciple of another among such people, but they spring up spontaneously from wherever each of them happens to have been inspired, and one thinks that the other knows nothing.
παρὰ μὲν οὖν τούτων, ὅπερ ᾖα ἐρῶν, οὐκ ἄν ποτε λάβοις λόγον οὔτε ἑκόντων οὔτε ἀκόντων· αὐτοὺς δὲ δεῖ παραλαβόντας ὥσπερ πρόβλημα ἐπισκοπεῖσθαι.
From these people, then, as I was going to say, you would never get an argument, whether they are willing or unwilling; but we must take it over ourselves like a problem and examine it.
ΣΩ. καὶ μετρίως γε λέγεις.
SOCRATES: And you speak reasonably.
τὸ δὲ δὴ πρόβλημα ἄλλο τι παρειλήφαμεν παρὰ μὲν τῶν ἀρχαίων μετὰ ποιήσεως ἐπικρυπτομένων τοὺς πολλούς, ὡς ἡ γένεσις τῶν ἄλλων πάντων Ὠκεανός τε καὶ Τηθὺς ῥεύματα ὄντα τυγχάνει καὶ οὐδὲν ἕστηκε, παρὰ δὲ τῶν ὑστέρων ἅτε σοφωτέρων ἀναφανδὸν ἀποδεικνυμένων, ἵνα καὶ οἱ σκυτοτόμοι αὐτῶν τὴν σοφίαν μάθωσιν ἀκούσαντες καὶ παύσωνται ἠλιθίως οἰόμενοι τὰ μὲν ἑστάναι, τὰ δὲ κινεῖσθαι τῶν ὄντων, μαθόντες δὲ ὅτι πάντα κινεῖται τιμῶσιν αὐτούς;
But have we not indeed received this problem from the ancients, who concealed it from the many by means of poetry, to the effect that the origin of all other things happens to be Oceanus and Tethys, which are flows, and nothing is stationary, and from the moderns, who, being wiser, declare it openly so that even their shoemakers may learn their wisdom by hearing it and cease foolishly thinking that some of the things that exist are stationary and others are moving, but, having learned that all things are moving, may honor them?
ὀλίγου δὲ ἐπελαθόμην, ὦ Θεόδωρε, ὅτι ἄλλοι αὖ τἀναντία τούτοις ἀπεφήναντο,
"
οἷον ἀκίνητον τελέθει τῷ παντὶ ὄνομʼ εἶναι
"
καὶ ἄλλα ὅσα Μέλισσοί τε καὶ Παρμενίδαι ἐναντιούμενοι πᾶσι τούτοις διισχυρίζονται, ὡς ἕν τε πάντα ἐστὶ καὶ ἕστηκεν αὐτὸ ἐν αὑτῷ οὐκ ἔχον χώραν ἐν ᾗ κινεῖται.
I almost forgot, Theodorus, that others on the contrary declared the opposite of these things, "unmoving is the name of the whole "and all the other things that the Melissuses and Parmenideses, opposing all these, strongly maintain, that all things are one and it stands itself in itself, having no place in which it moves.
§181ΣΩ. τούτοις οὖν, ὦ ἑταῖρε, πᾶσι τί χρησόμεθα;
SOCRATES: What then, my friend, shall we do with all these?
κατὰ σμικρὸν γὰρ προϊόντες λελήθαμεν ἀμφοτέρων εἰς τὸ μέσον πεπτωκότες, καὶ ἂν μή πῃ ἀμυνόμενοι διαφύγωμεν, δίκην δώσομεν ὥσπερ οἱ ἐν ταῖς παλαίστραις διὰ γραμμῆς παίζοντες, ὅταν ὑπʼ ἀμφοτέρων ληφθέντες ἕλκωνται εἰς τἀναντία.
For, progressing little by little, we have without realizing it fallen into the middle of both, and unless we somehow defend ourselves and escape, we shall pay the penalty like those playing on the line in the wrestling schools, when, being caught by both, they are pulled in opposite directions.
δοκεῖ οὖν μοι τοὺς ἑτέρους πρότερον σκεπτέον, ἐφʼ οὕσπερ ὡρμήσαμεν, τοὺς ῥέοντας, καὶ ἐὰν μέν τι φαίνωνται λέγοντες, συνέλξομεν μετʼ αὐτῶν ἡμᾶς αὐτούς, τοὺς ἑτέρους ἐκφυγεῖν πειρώμενοι·
It seems to me, therefore, that we must first examine the others, those upon whom we first set out, the flowing ones; and if they seem to be saying something of value, we shall pull ourselves along with them, trying to escape the others.
ἐὰν δὲ οἱ τοῦ ὅλου στασιῶται ἀληθέστερα λέγειν δοκῶσι, φευξόμεθα παρʼ αὐτοὺς ἀπʼ αὖ τῶν τὰ ἀκίνητα κινούντων.
But if the partisans of the whole's stability seem to speak more truly, we shall flee to them from those who move what is unmoving.
ἀμφότεροι δʼ ἂν φανῶσι μηδὲν μέτριον λέγοντες, γελοῖοι ἐσόμεθα ἡγούμενοι ἡμᾶς μὲν τὶ λέγειν φαύλους ὄντας, παμπαλαίους δὲ καὶ πασσόφους ἄνδρας ἀποδεδοκιμακότες.
And if both should appear to say nothing reasonable, we shall be ridiculous in thinking that we, being worthless, are saying something, after having rejected ancient and all-wise men.
ὅρα οὖν, ὦ Θεόδωρε, εἰ λυσιτελεῖ εἰς τοσοῦτον προϊέναι κίνδυνον.
See then, Theodorus, if it is profitable to go forward into such a danger.
ΘΕΟ. οὐδὲν μὲν οὖν ἀνεκτόν, ὦ Σώκρατες, μὴ οὐ διασκέψασθαι τί λέγουσιν ἑκάτεροι τῶν ἀνδρῶν.
THEODORUS: It is indeed not to be tolerated, Socrates, not to examine what each of the two groups of men are saying.
ΣΩ. σκεπτέον ἂν εἴη σοῦ γε οὕτω προθυμουμένου.
SOCRATES: We must examine it, then, since you are so eager.
δοκεῖ οὖν μοι ἀρχὴ εἶναι τῆς σκέψεως κινήσεως πέρι, ποῖόν τί ποτε ἄρα λέγοντές φασι τὰ πάντα κινεῖσθαι.
It seems to me, therefore, to be the beginning of the inquiry concerning motion, of what sort indeed they say it is when they assert that all things are moving.
βούλομαι δὲ λέγειν τὸ τοιόνδε· πότερον ἕν τι εἶδος αὐτῆς λέγουσιν ἤ, ὥσπερ ἐμοὶ φαίνεται, δύο;
I want to say something like this: do they say there is one form of it, or, as it appears to me, two?
μὴ μέντοι μόνον ἐμοὶ δοκείτω, ἀλλὰ συμμέτεχε καὶ σύ, ἵνα κοινῇ πάσχωμεν ἄν τι καὶ δέῃ.
Let it not, however, seem so to me alone, but do you also share in it, so that we may suffer together whatever may happen.
καί μοι λέγε· ἆρα κινεῖσθαι καλεῖς ὅταν τι χώραν ἐκ χώρας μεταβάλλῃ ἢ καὶ ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ στρέφηται;
Tell me: do you call it moving when something changes place from place, or also when it turns in the same place?
ΘΕΟ. ἔγωγε.
THEODORUS: I do indeed.
ΣΩ. τοῦτο μὲν τοίνυν ἓν ἔστω εἶδος.
SOCRATES: Let this, then, be one form.
ὅταν δὲ ᾖ μὲν ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ, γηράσκῃ δέ, ἢ μέλαν ἐκ λευκοῦ ἢ σκληρὸν ἐκ μαλακοῦ γίγνηται, ἤ τινα ἄλλην ἀλλοίωσιν ἀλλοιῶται, ἆρα οὐκ ἄξιον ἕτερον εἶδος φάναι κινήσεως;
But when it is in the same place, but grows old, or becomes black from white, or hard from soft, or undergoes any other alteration, is it not worthy to say that this is another form of motion?
ΘΕΟ. ἀναγκαῖον μὲν οὖν.
THEODORUS: It is indeed necessary.
ΣΩ. δύο δὴ λέγω τούτω εἴδει κινήσεως, ἀλλοίωσιν, τὴν δὲ φοράν.
SOCRATES: I speak, then, of these two forms of motion: alteration, and the other, change of place.
ΘΕΟ. ὀρθῶς γε λέγων.
THEODORUS: Speak correctly indeed.
ΣΩ. τοῦτο τοίνυν οὕτω διελόμενοι διαλεγώμεθα ἤδη τοῖς τὰ πάντα φάσκουσιν κινεῖσθαι καὶ ἐρωτῶμεν· πότερον πᾶν φατε ἀμφοτέρως κινεῖσθαι, φερόμενόν τε καὶ ἀλλοιούμενον, ἢ τὸ μέν τι ἀμφοτέρως, τὸ δʼ ἑτέρως;
SOCRATES: Having, then, divided this in this way, let us now converse with those who assert that all things are moving, and ask: do you say that everything is moving in both ways, being carried along and altered, or that some things are moving in both ways, and others in one of the two ways?
ΘΕΟ. ἀλλὰ μὰ Δίʼ ἔγωγε οὐκ ἔχω εἰπεῖν· οἶμαι δʼ ἂν φάναι ἀμφοτέρως.
THEODORUS: By Zeus, I cannot say; but I think they would say in both ways.
ΣΩ. εἰ δέ γε μή, ὦ ἑταῖρε, κινούμενά τε αὐτοῖς καὶ ἑστῶτα φανεῖται, καὶ οὐδὲν μᾶλλον ὀρθῶς ἕξει εἰπεῖν ὅτι κινεῖται τὰ πάντα ἢ ὅτι ἕστηκεν.
SOCRATES: If not, my friend, things moving and things stationary will appear to them, and it will be no more correct to say that all things are moving than that they are stationary.
ΘΕΟ. ἀληθέστατα λέγεις.
THEODORUS: You speak most truly.