§14.3#2οὐκ ἔοικε δʼ ἡ φύσις ἐπεισοδιώδης οὖσα ἐκ τῶν φαινομένων, ὥσπερ μοχθηρὰ τραγῳδία)· τοῖς δὲ τὰς ἰδέας τιθεμένοις τοῦτο μὲν ἐκφεύγει—ποιοῦσι γὰρ τὰ μεγέθη ἐκ τῆς ὕλης καὶ ἀριθμοῦ, ἐκ μὲν τῆς δυάδος τὰ μήκη, ἐκ τριάδος δʼ ἴσως τὰ ἐπίπεδα, ἐκ δὲ τῆς τετράδος τὰ στερεὰ ἢ καὶ ἐξ ἄλλων ἀριθμῶν· διαφέρει γὰρ οὐθέν—, ἀλλὰ ταῦτά γε πότερον ἰδέαι ἔσονται, ἢ τίς ὁ τρόπος αὐτῶν, καὶ τί συμβάλλονται τοῖς οὖσιν;
(But nature does not seem to be episodic from what appears, like a bad tragedy.) But for those who posit Ideas, this difficulty is escaped—for they make magnitudes out of matter and number: lengths from the dyad, planes perhaps from the triad, solids from the tetrad, or from other numbers—for it makes no difference—but will these be Ideas, or what is their mode of existence, and what do they contribute to existing things?
οὐθὲν γάρ, ὥσπερ οὐδὲ τὰ μαθηματικά, οὐδὲ ταῦτα συμβάλλεται.
For they contribute nothing, just as mathematical objects do not.
ἀλλὰ μὴν οὐδʼ ὑπάρχει γε κατʼ αὐτῶν οὐθὲν θεώρημα, ἐὰν μή τις βούληται κινεῖν τὰ μαθηματικὰ καὶ ποιεῖν ἰδίας τινὰς δόξας.
Moreover, no theorem even holds of them, unless one wants to change mathematical objects and make some private opinions.
ἔστι δʼ οὐ χαλεπὸν ὁποιασοῦν ὑποθέσεις λαμβάνοντας μακροποιεῖν καὶ συνείρειν.
And it is not difficult to spin out and connect arguments, taking any hypotheses whatsoever.
οὗτοι μὲν οὖν ταύτῃ προσγλιχόμενοι ταῖς ἰδέαις τὰ μαθηματικὰ διαμαρτάνουσιν· οἱ δὲ πρῶτοι δύο τοὺς ἀριθμοὺς ποιήσαντες, τόν τε τῶν εἰδῶν καὶ τὸν μαθηματικόν, οὔτʼ εἰρήκασιν οὔτʼ ἔχοιεν ἂν εἰπεῖν πῶς καὶ ἐκ τίνος ἔσται ὁ μαθηματικός.
These people, then, by clinging to the Ideas in this way, miss the truth about mathematical objects; but those who first made two kinds of numbers, both the number of forms and mathematical number, have neither explained nor could explain how and from what mathematical number will exist.
ποιοῦσι γὰρ αὐτὸν μεταξὺ τοῦ εἰδητικοῦ καὶ τοῦ αἰσθητοῦ.
For they make it intermediate between the formal and the sensible.
εἰ μὲν γὰρ ἐκ τοῦ μεγάλου καὶ μικροῦ, ὁ αὐτὸς ἐκείνῳ ἔσται τῷ τῶν ἰδεῶν (ἐξ ἄλλου δέ τινος μικροῦ καὶ μεγάλου τὰ μεγέθη ποιεῖ)· εἰ δʼ ἕτερόν τι ἐρεῖ, πλείω τὰ στοιχεῖα ἐρεῖ· καὶ εἰ ἕν τι ἑκατέρου ἡ ἀρχή, κοινόν τι ἐπὶ τούτων ἔσται τὸ ἕν, ζητητέον τε πῶς καὶ ταῦτα πολλὰ τὸ ἓν καὶ ἅμα τὸν ἀριθμὸν γενέσθαι ἄλλως ἢ ἐξ ἑνὸς καὶ δυάδος ἀορίστου ἀδύνατον κατʼ ἐκεῖνον.
For if it is from the great and small, it will be the same as the number of Ideas (and he makes magnitudes from another kind of small and great); while if he mentions some other thing, he will be saying that the elements are more numerous; and if the principle of each is some one thing, the 'one' will be something common to these, and we must inquire how 'the one' is both these many things, and at the same time how it is possible for number to be generated otherwise than from 'one' and the 'indefinite dyad', which is impossible according to him.
πάντα δὴ ταῦτα ἄλογα, καὶ μάχεται καὶ αὐτὰ ἑαυτοῖς καὶ τοῖς εὐλόγοις, καὶ ἔοικεν ἐν αὐτοῖς εἶναι ὁ Σιμωνίδου μακρὸς λόγος· γίγνεται γὰρ ὁ μακρὸς λόγος ὥσπερ ὁ τῶν δούλων ὅταν μηθὲν ὑγιὲς λέγωσιν.
All these things indeed are irrational, and conflict both with themselves and with reasonable views, and there seems to be in them the 'long speech' of Simonides; for a long speech is like that of slaves when they say nothing sound.
φαίνεται δὲ καὶ αὐτὰ τὰ στοιχεῖα τὸ μέγα καὶ τὸ μικρὸν βοᾶν ὡς ἑλκόμενα· οὐ δύναται γὰρ οὐδαμῶς γεννῆσαι τὸν ἀριθμὸν ἀλλʼ ἢ τὸν ἀφʼ ἑνὸς διπλασιαζόμενον. —ἄτοπον δὲ καὶ γένεσιν ποιεῖν ἀϊδίων ὄντων, μᾶλλον δʼ ἕν τι τῶν ἀδυνάτων.
And the elements themselves, the great and the small, seem to cry out as if they were being dragged; for they cannot by any means generate number except that which is doubled starting from one. — And it is absurd also to make a generation of things that are eternal, or rather it is one of the impossibilities.
οἱ μὲν οὖν Πυθαγόρειοι πότερον οὐ ποιοῦσιν ἢ ποιοῦσι γένεσιν οὐδὲν δεῖ διστάζειν· φανερῶς γὰρ λέγουσιν ὡς τοῦ ἑνὸς συσταθέντος, εἴτʼ ἐξ ἐπιπέδων εἴτʼ ἐκ χροιᾶς εἴτʼ ἐκ σπέρματος εἴτʼ ἐξ ὧν ἀποροῦσιν εἰπεῖν, εὐθὺς τὸ ἔγγιστα τοῦ ἀπείρου ὅτι εἵλκετο καὶ ἐπεραίνετο ὑπὸ τοῦ πέρατος.
Therefore, as to whether the Pythagoreans do or do not make a generation, there is no need to doubt; for they clearly say that when the one had been constructed—whether out of planes or surface-color or seed or from things they are at a loss to state—immediately the nearest part of the infinite was drawn in and limited by the limit.
ἀλλʼ ἐπειδὴ κοσμοποιοῦσι καὶ φυσικῶς βούλονται λέγειν, δίκαιον αὐτοὺς ἐξετάζειν τι περὶ φύσεως, ἐκ δὲ τῆς νῦν ἀφεῖναι μεθόδου· τὰς γὰρ ἐν τοῖς ἀκινήτοις ζητοῦμεν ἀρχάς, ὥστε καὶ τῶν ἀριθμῶν τῶν τοιούτων ἐπισκεπτέον τὴν γένεσιν.
But since they construct a world and wish to speak physically, it is right to examine them somewhat concerning nature, but to dismiss them from the present inquiry; for we are seeking the principles in things that are unchangeable, so that we must examine the generation of numbers of this kind.