§7.821ΚΛ. τὸ ποῖον δή;
CL.: What sort of thing, indeed?
ΑΘ. τὸν μέγιστον θεὸν καὶ ὅλον τὸν κόσμον φαμὲν οὔτε ζητεῖν δεῖν οὔτε πολυπραγμονεῖν τὰς αἰτίας ἐρευνῶντας—οὐ γὰρ οὐδʼ ὅσιον εἶναι—τὸ δὲ ἔοικεν πᾶν τούτου τοὐναντίον γιγνόμενον ὀρθῶς ἂν γίγνεσθαι.
ATH.: We say that one ought neither to search out nor to be busybodies inquiring into the causes of the greatest god and the whole cosmos—for indeed it is not even holy—but it seems that the complete opposite of this happening would happen rightly.
ΚΛ. πῶς εἶπες;
CL.: How do you mean?
ΑΘ. παράδοξον μὲν τὸ λεγόμενον, καὶ οὐκ ἂν πρεσβύταις τις οἰηθείη πρέπειν· τὸ δὲ ἐπειδάν τίς τι καλόν τε οἰηθῇ καὶ ἀληθὲς μάθημα εἶναι καὶ πόλει συμφέρον καὶ τῷ θεῷ παντάπασι φίλον, οὐδενὶ δὴ τρόπῳ δυνατόν ἐστιν ἔτι μὴ φράζειν.
ATH.: What is said is indeed paradoxical, and one would not think it fitting for old men; yet whenever someone thinks a certain study to be both beautiful and true, and advantageous to the city and altogether dear to God, it is in no way possible for him any longer not to speak of it.
ΚΛ. εἰκότα λέγεις· ἀλλʼ ἄστρων πέρι μάθημα τί τοιοῦτον ἀνευρήσομεν;
CL.: You speak reasonably; but what such study shall we find concerning the stars?
ΑΘ. ὦ ἀγαθοί, καταψευδόμεθα νῦν ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν Ἕλληνες πάντες μεγάλων θεῶν, Ἡλίου τε ἅμα καὶ Σελήνης.
ATH.: O good men, we are now, so to speak, all of us Greeks falsely accusing great gods, both Helios and Selene at the same time.
ΚΛ. τὸ ποῖον δὴ ψεῦδος;
CL.: What sort of lie, indeed?
ΑΘ. φαμὲν αὐτὰ οὐδέποτε τὴν αὐτὴν ὁδὸν ἰέναι, καὶ ἄλλʼ ἄττα ἄστρα μετὰ τούτων, ἐπονομάζοντες πλανητὰ αὐτά. ΚΛ. νὴ τὸν Δία, ὦ ξένε, ἀληθὲς τοῦτο λέγεις· ἐν γὰρ δὴ τῷ βίῳ πολλάκις ἑώρακα καὶ αὐτὸς τόν τε Ἑωσφόρον καὶ τὸν Ἕσπερον καὶ ἄλλους τινὰς οὐδέποτε ἰόντας εἰς τὸν αὐτὸν δρόμον ἀλλὰ πάντῃ πλανωμένους, τὸν δὲ ἥλιόν που καὶ σελήνην δρῶντας ταῦθʼ ἃ ἀεὶ πάντες συνεπιστάμεθα.
ATH.: We say that they never travel the same path, and some other stars along with them, naming them "wanderers." CL.: By Zeus, O stranger, you speak this truly; for indeed in my life I myself have often seen both the Morning Star and the Evening Star and certain others never going into the same course but wandering everywhere, and the sun and moon, I suppose, doing these very things which we all always know well.
ΑΘ. ταῦτʼ ἔστι τοίνυν, ὦ Μέγιλλέ τε καὶ Κλεινία, νῦν ἃ δή φημι δεῖν περὶ θεῶν τῶν κατʼ οὐρανὸν τούς γε ἡμετέρους πολίτας τε καὶ τοὺς νέους τὸ μέχρι τοσούτου μαθεῖν περὶ ἁπάντων τούτων, μέχρι τοῦ μὴ βλασφημεῖν περὶ αὐτά, εὐφημεῖν δὲ ἀεὶ θύοντάς τε καὶ ἐν εὐχαῖς εὐχομένους εὐσεβῶς.
ATH.: These are, therefore, O Megillus and Clinias, the things which I now say our citizens and the young must learn concerning the gods in heaven, to such an extent about all these things: to the point of not blaspheming concerning them, but always speaking auspiciously, sacrificing and praying piously in prayers.
ΚΛ. τοῦτο μὲν ὀρθόν, εἴ γε πρῶτον μὲν δυνατόν ἐστιν ὃ λέγεις μαθεῖν· εἶτα, εἰ μὴ λέγομέν τι περὶ αὐτῶν ὀρθῶς νῦν, μαθόντες δὲ λέξομεν, συγχωρῶ κἀγὼ τό γε τοσοῦτον καὶ τοιοῦτον ὂν μαθητέον εἶναι.
CL.: This is indeed correct, if first what you say is possible to learn; and next, if we do not speak correctly about them now, but will speak correctly having learned, I too agree that a study being of such an extent and of such a kind must be learned.
ταῦτʼ οὖν ὡς ἔχοντά ἐσθʼ οὕτω, πειρῶ σὺ μὲν ἐξηγεῖσθαι πάντως, ἡμεῖς δὲ συνέπεσθαί σοι μανθάνοντες.
Therefore, assuming these things are so, you try by all means to explain, and we will follow you by learning.
ΑΘ. ἀλλʼ ἔστι μὲν οὐ ῥᾴδιον ὃ λέγω μαθεῖν, οὐδʼ αὖ παντάπασι χαλεπόν, οὐδέ γέ τινος χρόνου παμπόλλου.
ATH.: Well, what I say is not easy to learn, nor on the other hand is it altogether difficult, nor does it require any immense time.
τεκμήριον δέ· ἐγὼ τούτων οὔτε νέος οὔτε πάλαι ἀκηκοὼς σφῷν ἂν νῦν οὐκ ἐν πολλῷ χρόνῳ δηλῶσαι δυναίμην.
And here is proof: I, having heard of these things neither when young nor long ago, would be able to make them clear to you two now in no long time.
καίτοι χαλεπά γε ὄντα οὐκ ἄν ποτε οἷός τʼ ἦν δηλοῦν τηλικούτοις οὖσι τηλικοῦτος.
Yet if they were indeed difficult, I would never have been capable of making them clear to you, being of such an age, and myself being of such an age.
§7.822ΚΛ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις.
CL.: You speak the truth.
ἀλλὰ τί καὶ φῂς τοῦτο τὸ μάθημα ὃ θαυμαστὸν μὲν λέγεις, προσῆκον δʼ αὖ μαθεῖν τοῖς νέοις, οὐ γιγνώσκειν δὲ ἡμᾶς;
But what do you say this study is, which you say is wonderful, and on the other hand fitting for the young to learn, but which we do not know?
πειρῶ περὶ αὐτοῦ τό γε τοσοῦτον φράζειν ὡς σαφέστατα.
Try to explain at least this much about it as clearly as possible.
ΑΘ. πειρατέον.
ATH.: I must try.
οὐ γάρ ἐστι τοῦτο, ὦ ἄριστοι, τὸ δόγμα ὀρθὸν περὶ σελήνης τε καὶ ἡλίου καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ἄστρων, ὡς ἄρα πλανᾶταί ποτε, πᾶν δὲ τοὐναντίον ἔχει τούτου—τὴν αὐτὴν γὰρ αὐτῶν ὁδὸν ἕκαστον καὶ οὐ πολλὰς ἀλλὰ μίαν ἀεὶ κύκλῳ διεξέρχεται, φαίνεται δὲ πολλὰς φερόμενον—τὸ δὲ τάχιστον αὐτῶν ὂν βραδύτατον οὐκ ὀρθῶς αὖ δοξάζεται, τὸ δʼ ἐναντίον ἐναντίως.
For this belief, O best of men, concerning the moon and sun and the other stars—namely, that they wander—is not correct, but the whole opposite of this is the case. For each of them always traverses the same path, and not many, but one, in a circle, though it appears to be carried along many. And again, that which is the fastest of them is incorrectly thought to be the slowest, and the opposite conversely.
ταῦτʼ οὖν εἰ πέφυκεν μὲν οὕτως, ἡμεῖς δὲ μὴ ταύτῃ δόξομεν, εἰ μὲν ἐν Ὀλυμπίᾳ θεόντων ἵππων οὕτως ἢ δολιχοδρόμων ἀνδρῶν διενοούμεθα πέρι, καὶ προσηγορεύομεν τὸν τάχιστον μὲν ὡς βραδύτατον, τὸν δὲ βραδύτατον ὡς τάχιστον, ἐγκώμιά τε ποιοῦντες ᾔδομεν τὸν ἡττώμενον νενικηκότα, οὔτε ὀρθῶς ἂν οὔτʼ οἶμαι προσφιλῶς τοῖς δρομεῦσιν ἡμᾶς ἂν τὰ ἐγκώμια προσάπτειν ἀνθρώποις οὖσιν·
Therefore, if these things are so by nature, and we do not think in this way, if we thought in this way about horses running at Olympia, or men in the long race, and addressed the fastest as the slowest, and the slowest as the fastest, and made encomiums and sang of the loser as having won, we would address our praises neither correctly nor, I think, in a way pleasing to the runners, who are but human.
νῦν δὲ δὴ περὶ θεοὺς τὰ αὐτὰ ταῦτα ἐξαμαρτανόντων ἡμῶν, ἆρʼ οὐκ οἰόμεθα ὃ γελοῖόν τε καὶ οὐκ ὀρθὸν ἐκεῖ γιγνόμενον ἦν ἂν τότε, νῦν ἐνταυθοῖ καὶ ἐν τούτοισι γίγνεσθαι γελοῖον μὲν οὐδαμῶς, οὐ μὴν οὐδὲ θεοφιλές γε, ψευδῆ φήμην ἡμῶν κατὰ θεῶν ὑμνούντων.
But now indeed, since we make these very same errors concerning gods, do we not think that what would have been ridiculous and incorrect if happening there at that time, now happening here and in these matters is by no means merely ridiculous, nor indeed pleasing to the gods, as we sing false reports against the gods?
ΚΛ. ἀληθέστατα, εἴπερ γε οὕτω ταῦτʼ ἐστίν.
CL.: Most true, if indeed these things are so.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν ἂν μὲν δείξωμεν οὕτω ταῦτʼ ἔχοντα, μαθητέα μέχρι γε τούτου τὰ τοιαῦτα πάντα, μὴ δειχθέντων δὲ ἐατέον;
ATH.: Therefore, if we show that these things are so, must all such things be learned at least up to this point, but if they are not shown, must they be let go?
καὶ ταῦτα ἡμῖν οὕτω συγκείσθω;
And shall this be agreed upon by us in this way?
ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
CL.: Absolutely indeed.
ΑΘ. ἤδη τοίνυν χρὴ φάναι τέλος ἔχειν τά γε παιδείας μαθημάτων πέρι νόμιμα· περὶ δὲ θήρας ὡσαύτως διανοηθῆναι χρὴ καὶ περὶ ἁπάντων ὁπόσα τοιαῦτα.
ATH.: Now, therefore, one must say that the regulations concerning the studies of education have an end; and concerning hunting likewise one must think, and concerning all such things as many as are of this kind.
κινδυνεύει γὰρ δὴ νομοθέτῃ τὸ προσταττόμενον ἐπὶ μεῖζον εἶναι τοῦ νόμους θέντα ἀπηλλάχθαι, ἕτερον δέ τι πρὸς τοῖς νόμοις εἶναι μεταξύ τι νουθετήσεώς τε πεφυκὸς ἅμα καὶ νόμων, ὃ δὴ πολλάκις ἡμῶν ἐμπέπτωκεν τοῖς λόγοις, οἷον περὶ τὴν τῶν σφόδρα νέων παίδων τροφήν·
For the task prescribed for a lawmaker is likely to be something greater than merely laying down laws and being done with it, and there is something else besides the laws, born as a certain intermediate between admonition and laws, which indeed has often fallen into our discussions, such as concerning the nurturing of very young children.
οὐ γὰρ ἄρρητά φαμεν εἶναι, λέγοντές τε αὐτά, ὡς νόμους οἴεσθαι τιθεμένους εἶναι πολλῆς ἀνοίας γέμειν.
For we do not say they are things not to be spoken of, yet in speaking of them, to think they are established laws is full of much folly.
γεγραμμένων δὴ ταύτῃ τῶν νόμων τε καὶ ὅλης τῆς πολιτείας, οὐ τέλεος ὁ τοῦ διαφέροντος πολίτου πρὸς ἀρετὴν γίγνεται ἔπαινος, ὅταν αὐτόν τις φῇ τὸν ὑπηρετήσαντα τοῖς νόμοις ἄριστα καὶ πειθόμενον μάλιστα, τοῦτον εἶναι τὸν ἀγαθόν·
When the laws and the whole constitution are written down in this way, the praise of the citizen who excels in virtue does not become complete when someone says that he who has served the laws best and obeyed them most is the good man.