§7.804ΑΘ. ὁποῖα δὲ ᾄδων ἄν τις καὶ ὀρχούμενος ἀμφότερα ταῦτα πράττοι, τὸ μὲν τῶν τύπων εἴρηται καὶ καθάπερ ὁδοὶ τέτμηνται καθʼ ἃς ἰτέον, προσδοκῶντα καὶ τὸν ποιητὴν εὖ λέγειν τὸ—
"
Τηλέμαχʼ, ἄλλα μὲν αὐτὸς ἐνὶ φρεσὶ σῇσι νοήσεις,
ἄλλα δὲ καὶ δαίμων ὑποθήσεται· οὐ γὰρ ὀίω
οὔ σε θεῶν ἀέκητι γενέσθαι τε τραφέμεν τε. "
ταὐτὸν δὴ καὶ τοὺς ἡμετέρους τροφίμους δεῖ διανοουμένους τὰ μὲν εἰρημένα ἀποχρώντως νομίζειν εἰρῆσθαι, τὰ δὲ καὶ τὸν δαίμονά τε καὶ θεὸν αὐτοῖσιν ὑποθήσεσθαι θυσιῶν τε πέρι καὶ χορειῶν, οἷστισί τε καὶ ὁπότε ἕκαστα ἑκάστοις προσπαίζοντές τε καὶ ἱλεούμενοι κατὰ τὸν τρόπον τῆς φύσεως διαβιώσονται, θαύματα ὄντες τὸ πολύ, σμικρὰ δὲ ἀληθείας ἄττα μετέχοντες.
ATH.: But as to what kind of songs and dances someone should perform to do both of these things, the model indeed has been spoken of and as it were paths have been cut along which we must go, expecting also the poet to speak well when he says— "Telemachus, some things you yourself will devise in your own mind, and others indeed a divinity will prompt; for I do not think that you were born and bred without the will of the gods."\n Indeed, our pupils also must think in the same way and believe that what has been said has been sufficiently laid down, and that a divinity and God himself will prompt them about other things concerning sacrifices and choral dances, as to whom and when they should play and propitiate each of them, and live through life according to the character of their nature, being for the most part puppets, sharing in only some small portions of truth.
ΜΕ. παντάπασι τὸ τῶν ἀνθρώπων γένος ἡμῖν, ὦ ξένε, διαφαυλίζεις.
ME.: You altogether disparage our human race, Stranger.
ΑΘ. μὴ θαυμάσῃς, ὦ Μέγιλλε, ἀλλὰ σύγγνωθί μοι· πρὸς γὰρ τὸν θεὸν ἀπιδὼν καὶ παθὼν εἶπον ὅπερ εἴρηκα νῦν.
ATH.: Do not wonder, Megillus, but forgive me; for looking toward God and being affected, I said what I have just said.
ἔστω δʼ οὖν τὸ γένος ἡμῶν μὴ φαῦλον, εἴ σοι φίλον, σπουδῆς δέ τινος ἄξιον.
But indeed, let our race be not worthless, if it is pleasing to you, but worthy of some seriousness.
τὸ δʼ ἑξῆς τούτοις, οἰκοδομίαι μὲν εἴρηνται γυμνασίων ἅμα καὶ διδασκαλείων κοινῶν τριχῇ κατὰ μέσην τὴν πόλιν, ἔξωθεν δὲ ἵππων αὖ τριχῇ περὶ τὸ ἄστυ γυμνάσιά τε καὶ εὐρυχώρια, τοξικῆς τε καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ἀκροβολισμῶν ἕνεκα διακεκοσμημένα, μαθήσεώς τε ἅμα καὶ μελέτης τῶν νέων·
Next in order to these things, the buildings of gymnasia and indeed of common schools have been spoken of, in three places in the middle of the city, and outside on the other hand three gymnasia and wide spaces for horses around the town, arranged for archery and other skirmishing, and for the learning and practice of the young.
εἰ δʼ ἄρα μὴ τότε ἱκανῶς ἐρρήθησαν, νῦν εἰρήσθω τῷ λόγῳ μετὰ νόμων.
And if indeed they were not sufficiently spoken of then, let them now be spoken of in the discourse accompanied by laws.
ἐν δὲ τούτοις πᾶσιν διδασκάλους ἑκάστων πεπεισμένους μισθοῖς οἰκοῦντας ξένους διδάσκειν τε πάντα ὅσα πρὸς τὸν πόλεμόν ἐστιν μαθήματα τοὺς φοιτῶντας ὅσα τε πρὸς μουσικήν, οὐχ ὃν μὲν ἂν ὁ πατὴρ βούληται, φοιτῶντα, ὃν δʼ ἂν μή, ἐῶντα τὰς παιδείας, ἀλλὰ τὸ λεγόμενον πάντʼ ἄνδρα καὶ παῖδα κατὰ τὸ δυνατόν, ὡς τῆς πόλεως μᾶλλον ἢ τῶν γεννητόρων ὄντας, παιδευτέον ἐξ ἀνάγκης.
And in all these, hired teachers who reside there as foreigners must teach all the lessons that concern war and all that concern music to those who attend, and a boy should not attend only if his father wishes, while if he does not wish, letting him go without education, but as the saying goes, every man and child must, as far as possible, be educated by necessity, on the grounds that they belong to the state more than to their parents.
τὰ αὐτὰ δὲ δὴ καὶ περὶ θηλειῶν ὁ μὲν ἐμὸς νόμος ἂν εἴποι πάντα ὅσαπερ καὶ περὶ τῶν ἀρρένων, ἴσα καὶ τὰς θηλείας ἀσκεῖν δεῖν· καὶ οὐδὲν φοβηθεὶς εἴποιμʼ ἂν τοῦτον τὸν λόγον οὔτε ἱππικῆς οὔτε γυμναστικῆς, ὡς ἀνδράσι μὲν πρέπον ἂν εἴη, γυναιξὶ δὲ οὐκ ἂν πρέπον.
And about females also, my law would say the same things, indeed all the same things as about males, that females must practice equally; and fearing nothing, I would speak this word about neither horsemanship nor gymnastics, as if it were fitting for men but not fitting for women.
§7.805ΑΘ.ἀκούων μὲν γὰρ δὴ μύθους παλαιοὺς πέπεισμαι, τὰ δὲ νῦν ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν οἶδα ὅτι μυριάδες ἀναρίθμητοι γυναικῶν εἰσι τῶν περὶ τὸν Πόντον, ἃς Σαυρομάτιδας καλοῦσιν, αἷς οὐχ ἵππων μόνον ἀλλὰ καὶ τόξων καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ὅπλων κοινωνία καὶ τοῖς ἀνδράσιν ἴση προστεταγμένη ἴσως ἀσκεῖται.
ATH.: For hearing indeed ancient myths, I am convinced, and as for now, so to speak, I know that there are countless tens of thousands of women around Pontus, whom they call Sauromatides, for whom not only horsemanship but also the sharing of bows and other weapons is assigned equally with men, and practiced equally.
λογισμὸν δὲ πρὸς τούτοις περὶ τούτων τοιόνδε τινὰ ἔχω· φημί, εἴπερ ταῦτα οὕτω συμβαίνειν ἐστὶν δυνατά, πάντων ἀνοητότατα τὰ νῦν ἐν τοῖς παρʼ ἡμῖν τόποις γίγνεσθαι τὸ μὴ πάσῃ ῥώμῃ πάντας ὁμοθυμαδὸν ἐπιτηδεύειν ἄνδρας γυναιξὶν ταὐτά.
And in addition to these, I have a certain reasoning about them: I say that if indeed these things are possible to happen in this way, the things happening now in our regions are the most foolish of all, in that all men do not with one mind and with all their strength practice the same things as women.
σχεδὸν γὰρ ὀλίγου πᾶσα ἡμίσεια πόλις ἀντὶ διπλασίας οὕτως ἔστιν τε καὶ γίγνεται ἐκ τῶν αὐτῶν τελῶν καὶ πόνων·
For almost every state is and becomes thus half instead of double, arising from the same taxes and labors.
καίτοι θαυμαστὸν ἂν ἁμάρτημα νομοθέτῃ τοῦτʼ αὐτὸ γίγνοιτο.
And yet this very thing would become a wonderful error for a legislator.
ΚΛ. ἔοικέν γε· ἔστι μέντοι πάμπολλα ἡμῖν, ὦ ξένε, παρὰ τὰς εἰωθυίας πολιτείας τῶν νῦν λεγομένων.
CL.: It seems so; indeed, many of the things now being said, Stranger, are contrary to our customary constitutions.
ἀλλὰ γὰρ εἰπὼν τὸν μὲν λόγον ἐᾶσαι διεξελθεῖν, εὖ διελθόντος δέ, οὕτω τὸ δοκοῦν αἱρεῖσθαι δεῖν, μάλα εἶπές τε ἐμμελῶς, πεποίηκάς τέ με τὰ νῦν αὐτὸν ἐμαυτῷ ἐπιπλήττειν ὅτι ταῦτα εἴρηκα·
But indeed, as you said, to let the discourse run through to the end, and when it has run through well, then to choose what seems necessary, you have spoken very fittingly, and you have made me now rebuke myself for having said these things.
λέγε οὖν τὸ μετὰ ταῦτα ὅτι σοι κεχαρισμένον ἐστίν.
Speak then what follows next, as it is pleasing to you.
ΑΘ. τόδε ἔμοιγε, ὦ Κλεινία, ὃ καὶ πρόσθεν εἶπον, ὡς, εἰ μὲν ταῦτα ἦν μὴ ἱκανῶς ἔργοις ἐληλεγμένα ὅτι δυνατά ἐστι γίγνεσθαι, τάχα ἦν ἄν τι καὶ ἀντειπεῖν τῷ λόγῳ, νῦν δὲ ἄλλο τί που ζητητέον ἐκείνῳ τῷ τοῦτον τὸν νόμον μηδαμῇ δεχομένῳ, τὸ δʼ ἡμέτερον διακέλευμα ἐν τούτοις οὐκ ἀποσβήσεται τὸ μὴ οὐ λέγειν ὡς δεῖ παιδείας τε καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ὅτι μάλιστα κοινωνεῖν τὸ θῆλυ γένος ἡμῖν τῷ τῶν ἀρρένων γένει. καὶ γὰρ οὖν οὑτωσί πως δεῖ περὶ αὐτῶν διανοηθῆναι.
ATH.: This indeed is pleasing to me, Cleinias, which I also said before, that if indeed these things were not sufficiently tested by facts that they are possible to happen, perhaps there would be something to say against the discourse, but now indeed something else must be sought by him who does not receive this law in any way. But our exhortation in these matters will not die out so as not to say that the female race must share with us as much as possible in education and other things. And indeed we must think of them in this way.
φέρε, μὴ μετεχουσῶν ἀνδράσι γυναικῶν κοινῇ τῆς ζωῆς πάσης, μῶν οὐκ ἀνάγκη γενέσθαι γέ τινα τάξιν ἑτέραν αὐταῖς;
Come, if women do not share with men in common in all of life, is it not necessary that some other order should arise for them?
ΚΛ. ἀνάγκη μὲν οὖν.
CL.: It is necessary indeed.
ΑΘ. τίνα οὖν ἔμπροσθεν τῶν νῦν ἀποδεδειγμένων θεῖμεν ἂν τῆς κοινωνίας ταύτης ἣν νῦν αὐταῖς ἡμεῖς προστάττομεν;
ATH.: Which of the ones now established before should we place instead of this partnership which we now prescribe for them?
πότερον ἣν Θρᾷκες ταῖς γυναιξὶν χρῶνται καὶ πολλὰ ἕτερα γένη, γεωργεῖν τε καὶ βουκολεῖν καὶ ποιμαίνειν καὶ διακονεῖν μηδὲν διαφερόντως τῶν δούλων;
Whether that which the Thracians use for women and many other races, to cultivate the land, to tend cattle and sheep, and to serve in no way differently from slaves?
ἢ καθάπερ ἡμεῖς ἅπαντές τε οἱ περὶ τὸν τόπον ἐκεῖνον;
Or as all of us who are in that region do?
νῦν γὰρ δὴ τό γε παρʼ ἡμῖν ὧδέ ἐστιν περὶ τούτων γιγνόμενον· εἴς τινα μίαν οἴκησιν συμφορήσαντες, τὸ λεγόμενον, πάντα χρήματα, παρέδομεν ταῖς γυναιξὶν διαταμιεύειν τε καὶ κερκίδων ἄρχειν καὶ πάσης ταλασίας.
For indeed our practice in these matters is as follows: having gathered all property, as the saying goes, into one single dwelling, we deliver it to the women to manage, and to rule over the shuttles and all spinning.