§7.802ΑΘ. τούς γε μὴν ἔτι ζῶντας ἐγκωμίοις τε καὶ ὕμνοις τιμᾶν οὐκ ἀσφαλές, πρὶν ἂν ἅπαντά τις τὸν βίον διαδραμὼν τέλος ἐπιστήσηται καλόν·
ATH.: However, to honor those who are still living with encomia and hymns is not safe, until one, having run through his whole life, has achieved a beautiful end.
ταῦτα δὲ πάντα ἡμῖν ἔστω κοινὰ ἀνδράσιν τε καὶ γυναιξὶν ἀγαθοῖς καὶ ἀγαθαῖς διαφανῶς γενομένοις.
And let all these things be common for us to men and women who have manifestly become good.
τὰς δὲ ᾠδάς τε καὶ ὀρχήσεις οὑτωσὶ χρὴ καθίστασθαι.
And songs and dances must be established in this way.
πολλὰ ἔστιν παλαιῶν παλαιὰ περὶ μουσικὴν καὶ καλὰ ποιήματα, καὶ δὴ καὶ τοῖς σώμασιν ὀρχήσεις ὡσαύτως, ὧν οὐδεὶς φθόνος ἐκλέξασθαι τῇ καθισταμένῃ πολιτείᾳ τὸ πρέπον καὶ ἁρμόττον·
There are many ancient and beautiful poems of the ancients concerning music, and indeed likewise dances for the body, from which there is no envy to select what is fitting and suitable for the established constitution.
δοκιμαστὰς δὲ τούτων ἑλομένους τὴν ἐκλογὴν ποιεῖσθαι μὴ νεωτέρους πεντήκοντα ἐτῶν, καὶ ὅτι μὲν ἂν ἱκανὸν εἶναι δόξῃ τῶν παλαιῶν ποιημάτων, ἐγκρίνειν, ὅτι δʼ ἂν ἐνδεὲς ἢ τὸ παράπαν ἀνεπιτήδειον, τὸ μὲν ἀποβάλλεσθαι παντάπασιν, τὸ δʼ ἐπανερόμενον ἐπιρρυθμίζειν, ποιητικοὺς ἅμα καὶ μουσικοὺς ἄνδρας παραλαβόντας, χρωμένους αὐτῶν ταῖς δυνάμεσιν τῆς ποιήσεως, ταῖς δὲ ἡδοναῖς καὶ ἐπιθυμίαις μὴ ἐπιτρέποντας ἀλλʼ ἤ τισιν ὀλίγοις, ἐξηγουμένους δὲ τὰ τοῦ νομοθέτου βουλήματα, ὅτι μάλιστα ὄρχησίν τε καὶ ᾠδὴν καὶ πᾶσαν χορείαν συστήσασθαι κατὰ τὸν αὐτῶν νοῦν.
And having chosen examiners of these, they should make the selection, being not younger than fifty years old. And whatever of the ancient poems seems to be sufficient, they must admit, and whatever is deficient or altogether unsuitable, on the one hand to reject entirely, and on the other hand to correct by re-evaluating, taking along men who are poetic and musical, employing their powers of composition, but not permitting their pleasures and desires except in some few cases, and explaining the wishes of the legislator, to establish dance and song and all choral performance as much as possible according to their mind.
πᾶσα δʼ ἄτακτός γε τάξιν λαβοῦσα περὶ μοῦσαν διατριβὴ καὶ μὴ παρατιθεμένης τῆς γλυκείας μούσης ἀμείνων μυρίῳ· τὸ δʼ ἡδὺ κοινὸν πάσαις.
But any pursuit concerning the Muse that is disorderly, once it receives order, even if the sweet Muse is not set alongside, is ten thousand times better; for pleasure is common to all.
ἐν ᾗ γὰρ ἂν ἐκ παίδων τις μέχρι τῆς ἑστηκυίας τε καὶ ἔμφρονος ἡλικίας διαβιῷ, σώφρονι μὲν μούσῃ καὶ τεταγμένῃ, ἀκούων δὲ τῆς ἐναντίας, μισεῖ καὶ ἀνελεύθερον αὐτὴν προσαγορεύει, τραφεὶς δʼ ἐν τῇ κοινῇ καὶ γλυκείᾳ, ψυχρὰν καὶ ἀηδῆ τὴν ταύτῃ ἐναντίαν εἶναί φησιν·
For in whichever music someone lives from childhood until the established and prudent age, if it is a temperate and ordered Muse, but hears the opposite, he hates it and calls it illiberal; but having been brought up in the common and sweet one, he says that the one opposite to this is cold and unpleasant.
ὥστε, ὅπερ ἐρρήθη νυνδή, τό γε τῆς ἡδονῆς ἢ ἀηδίας περὶ ἑκατέρας οὐδὲν πεπλεονέκτηκεν, ἐκ περιττοῦ δὲ ἡ μὲν βελτίους, ἡ δὲ χείρους τοὺς ἐν αὐτῇ τραφέντας ἑκάστοτε παρέχεται.
So that, as was said just now, as far as pleasure or unpleasantness is concerned, neither has any advantage over the other, but as a surplus, the one makes those brought up in it better, and the other makes them worse on each occasion.
ΚΛ. καλῶς εἴρηκας.
CL.: You have spoken well.
ΑΘ. ἔτι δὲ θηλείαις τε πρεπούσας ᾠδὰς ἄρρεσί τε χωρίσαι που δέον ἂν εἴη τύπῳ τινὶ διορισάμενον, καὶ ἁρμονίαισιν δὴ καὶ ῥυθμοῖς προσαρμόττειν ἀναγκαῖον· δεινὸν γὰρ ὅλῃ γε ἁρμονίᾳ ἀπᾴδειν ἢ ῥυθμῷ ἀρρυθμεῖν, μηδὲν προσήκοντα τούτων ἑκάστοις ἀποδιδόντα τοῖς μέλεσιν.
ATH.: Furthermore, it would be necessary to separate songs fitting for females and males by defining them by some type, and indeed it is necessary to adapt them to harmonies and rhythms; for it is a terrible thing to sing out of tune with the whole harmony or to be out of rhythm with the rhythm, by assigning nothing fitting of these to each of the songs.
ἀναγκαῖον δὴ καὶ τούτων τὰ σχήματά γε νομοθετεῖν.
So it is necessary to legislate the forms of these also.
ἔστιν δὲ ἀμφοτέροις μὲν ἀμφότερα ἀνάγκῃ κατεχόμενα ἀποδιδόναι, τὰ δὲ τῶν θηλειῶν αὐτῷ τῷ τῆς φύσεως ἑκατέρου διαφέροντι, τούτῳ δεῖ καὶ διασαφεῖν.
But while it is necessary to assign both to both, bound by necessity, those of females must be clarified by this very difference in the nature of each.
τὸ δὴ μεγαλοπρεπὲς οὖν καὶ τὸ πρὸς τὴν ἀνδρείαν ῥέπον ἀρρενωπὸν φατέον εἶναι, τὸ δὲ πρὸς τὸ κόσμιον καὶ σῶφρον μᾶλλον ἀποκλῖνον θηλυγενέστερον ὡς ὂν παραδοτέον ἔν τε τῷ νόμῳ καὶ λόγῳ.
Therefore, we must say that what is magnificent and inclines toward courage is masculine, while what leans more toward orderliness and temperance must be handed down as being more feminine, both in law and in discourse.
§7.803ΑΘ.τάξις μὲν δή τις αὕτη·
ATH.: This indeed is some order.
τούτων δὲ αὐτῶν διδασκαλία καὶ παράδοσις λεγέσθω τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο, τίνα τρόπον χρὴ καὶ οἷστισιν καὶ πότε πράττειν ἕκαστα αὐτῶν.
And after this, let the teaching and transmission of these very things be spoken of, in what manner and to whom and when one must perform each of them.
οἷον δή τις ναυπηγὸς τὴν τῆς ναυπηγίας ἀρχὴν καταβαλλόμενος τὰ τροπιδεῖα ὑπογράφεται τῶν πλοίων σχήματα, ταὐτὸν δή μοι κἀγὼ φαίνομαι ἐμαυτῷ δρᾶν, τὰ τῶν βίων πειρώμενος σχήματα διαστήσασθαι κατὰ τρόπους τοὺς τῶν ψυχῶν, ὄντως αὐτῶν τὰ τροπιδεῖα καταβάλλεσθαι, ποίᾳ μηχανῇ καὶ τίσιν ποτὲ τρόποις συνόντες τὸν βίον ἄριστα διὰ τοῦ πλοῦ τούτου τῆς ζωῆς διακομισθησόμεθα, τοῦτο σκοπεῖν ὀρθῶς.
Just as a shipbuilder, laying down the beginning of shipbuilding, drafts the keels as the forms of the vessels, so indeed I seem to myself to be doing the same thing, trying to distinguish the forms of lives according to the characters of the souls, really laying down their keels, examining correctly by what device and by what ways living together we shall best be carried through this voyage of life.
ἔστι δὴ τοίνυν τὰ τῶν ἀνθρώπων πράγματα μεγάλης μὲν σπουδῆς οὐκ ἄξια, ἀναγκαῖόν γε μὴν σπουδάζειν· τοῦτο δὲ οὐκ εὐτυχές.
Now indeed, human affairs are not worthy of great seriousness, but yet it is necessary to be serious about them; and this is not fortunate.
ἐπειδὴ δὲ ἐνταῦθά ἐσμεν, εἴ πως διὰ προσήκοντός τινος αὐτὸ πράττοιμεν, ἴσως ἂν ἡμῖν σύμμετρον ἂν εἴη.
But since we are here, if somehow we should do it through something fitting, perhaps it would be suitable for us.
λέγω δὲ δὴ τί ποτε;
But what indeed do I mean?
ἴσως μεντἄν τίς μοι τοῦτʼ αὐτὸ ὑπολαβὼν ὀρθῶς ὑπολάβοι.
Perhaps indeed someone might take me up on this very point, and take me up correctly.
ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
CL.: By all means.
ΑΘ. φημὶ χρῆναι τὸ μὲν σπουδαῖον σπουδάζειν, τὸ δὲ μὴ σπουδαῖον μή, φύσει δὲ εἶναι θεὸν μὲν πάσης μακαρίου σπουδῆς ἄξιον, ἄνθρωπον δέ, ὅπερ εἴπομεν ἔμπροσθεν, θεοῦ τι παίγνιον εἶναι μεμηχανημένον, καὶ ὄντως τοῦτο αὐτοῦ τὸ βέλτιστον γεγονέναι· τούτῳ δὴ δεῖν τῷ τρόπῳ συνεπόμενον καὶ παίζοντα ὅτι καλλίστας παιδιὰς πάντʼ ἄνδρα καὶ γυναῖκα οὕτω διαβιῶναι, τοὐναντίον ἢ νῦν διανοηθέντας.
ATH.: I say that one must be serious about what is serious, and not about what is not serious, and that by nature God indeed is worthy of all blessed seriousness, but man, as we said before, has been devised as a certain plaything of God, and that this in reality has become the best part of him; and that, following this way and playing the most beautiful games, every man and woman must thus live through life, thinking the opposite of what they do now.
ΚΛ. πῶς;
CL.: How?
ΑΘ. νῦν μέν που τὰς σπουδὰς οἴονται δεῖν ἕνεκα τῶν παιδιῶν γίγνεσθαι· τὰ γὰρ περὶ τὸν πόλεμον ἡγοῦνται σπουδαῖα ὄντα τῆς εἰρήνης ἕνεκα δεῖν εὖ τίθεσθαι.
ATH.: Now indeed, I suppose, they think that serious matters must exist for the sake of play; for they believe that matters concerning war, being serious, must be well arranged for the sake of peace.
τὸ δʼ ἦν ἐν πολέμῳ μὲν ἄρα οὔτʼ οὖν παιδιὰ πεφυκυῖα οὔτʼ αὖ παιδεία ποτὲ ἡμῖν ἀξιόλογος, οὔτε οὖσα οὔτʼ ἐσομένη, ὃ δή φαμεν ἡμῖν γε εἶναι σπουδαιότατον· δεῖ δὴ τὸν κατʼ εἰρήνην βίον ἕκαστον πλεῖστόν τε καὶ ἄριστον διεξελθεῖν.
But in war there is, after all, neither any play by nature nor any education worthy of mention for us, neither existing now nor to be in the future, which indeed we say is the most serious thing for us; indeed, one must live through life in peace as much and as best as possible.
τίς οὖν ὀρθότης;
What then is the correct way?
παίζοντά ἐστιν διαβιωτέον τινὰς δὴ παιδιάς, θύοντα καὶ ᾄδοντα καὶ ὀρχούμενον, ὥστε τοὺς μὲν θεοὺς ἵλεως αὑτῷ παρασκευάζειν δυνατὸν εἶναι, τοὺς δʼ ἐχθροὺς ἀμύνεσθαι καὶ νικᾶν μαχόμενον·
One must live through life playing certain games, sacrificing and singing and dancing, so that it is possible to make the gods propitious to oneself, and to defend against enemies and conquer them in battle.