§7.798ΑΘ. καὶ ἄν ποτʼ ἄρα ἀναγκασθῇ μεταβάλλειν αὖθις ἡντινοῦν τῶν εὐδοκίμων διαιτῶν, τό γε κατʼ ἀρχὰς συνταραχθεὶς ὑπὸ νόσων μόγις ποτὲ κατέστη, τὴν συνήθειαν τῇ τροφῇ πάλιν ἀπολαβών, ταὐτὸν δὴ δεῖ νομίζειν τοῦτο γίγνεσθαι καὶ περὶ τὰς τῶν ἀνθρώπων διανοίας τε ἅμα καὶ τὰς τῶν ψυχῶν φύσεις.
ATH.: And if indeed it should ever be forced to change again any of the highly approved regimens, though at first highly disturbed by diseases, it is with difficulty at last restored when it recovers again its habituation to the food; we must believe that this same thing happens also regarding both the thoughts of men and the natures of their souls.
οἷς γὰρ ἂν ἐντραφῶσιν νόμοις καὶ κατά τινα θείαν εὐτυχίαν ἀκίνητοι γένωνται μακρῶν καὶ πολλῶν χρόνων, ὡς μηδένα ἔχειν μνείαν μηδὲ ἀκοὴν τοῦ ποτε ἄλλως αὐτὰ σχεῖν ἢ καθάπερ νῦν ἔχει, σέβεται καὶ φοβεῖται πᾶσα ἡ ψυχὴ τό τι κινεῖν τῶν τότε καθεστώτων.
For the laws in which they are brought up, and which by some divine good fortune have remained unchanged for long and many years, so that no one has any memory or report of them ever being otherwise than as they are now, the entire soul respects and fears to move any of the then established order.
μηχανὴν δὴ δεῖ τὸν νομοθέτην ἐννοεῖν ἁμόθεν γέ ποθεν ὅντινα τρόπον τοῦτʼ ἔσται τῇ πόλει.
The legislator must therefore devise some means, from whatever source, in what way this shall be secured for the state.
τῇδʼ οὖν ἔγωγε εὑρίσκω.
Here is where I find it.
τὰς παιδιὰς πάντες διανοοῦνται κινουμένας τῶν νέων, ὅπερ ἔμπροσθεν ἐλέγομεν, παιδιὰς ὄντως εἶναι καὶ οὐ τὴν μεγίστην ἐξ αὐτῶν σπουδὴν καὶ βλάβην συμβαίνειν, ὥστε οὐκ ἀποτρέπουσιν ἀλλὰ συνέπονται ὑπείκοντες, καὶ οὐ λογίζονται τόδε, ὅτι τούτους ἀνάγκη τοὺς παῖδας τοὺς ἐν ταῖς παιδιαῖς νεωτερίζοντας ἑτέρους ἄνδρας τῶν ἔμπροσθεν γενέσθαι παίδων, γενομένους δὲ ἄλλους, ἄλλον βίον ζητεῖν, ζητήσαντας δέ, ἑτέρων ἐπιτηδευμάτων καὶ νόμων ἐπιθυμῆσαι, καὶ μετὰ τοῦτο ὡς ἥξοντος τοῦ νυνδὴ λεγομένου μεγίστου κακοῦ πόλεσιν οὐδεὶς αὐτῶν φοβεῖται.
Everyone supposes that the changes of children's play, which we spoke of before, are indeed truly play, and that no very great seriousness or harm results from them; therefore, they do not prevent them but yield and follow them, and they do not calculate this: that these children who innovate in their play must of necessity grow up to be different men from the children of former times, and having become different, they will seek a different life, and having sought it, they will desire other customs and laws, and after this none of them fears that the greatest evil for states, of which we spoke just now, will come.
τὰ μὲν οὖν ἄλλα ἐλάττω μεταβαλλόμενα κακὰ διεξεργάζοιτʼ ἄν, ὅσα περὶ σχήματα πάσχει τὸ τοιοῦτον· ὅσα δὲ περὶ τὰ τῶν ἠθῶν ἐπαίνου τε καὶ ψόγου πέρι πυκνὰ μεταπίπτει, πάντων, οἴομαι, μέγιστά τε καὶ πλείστης εὐλαβείας δεόμενα ἂν εἴη.
Other external changes of this sort, in matters of postures, would indeed produce lesser evils when changed; but those which frequently shift concerning the characters of praise and blame would be, I think, the greatest of all and in need of the greatest caution.
ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
CL.: How indeed could it be otherwise?
ΑΘ. τί οὖν;
ATH.: What then?
τοῖς ἔμπροσθεν λόγοις πιστεύομεν, οἷς ἐλέγομεν ὡς τὰ περὶ τοὺς ῥυθμοὺς καὶ πᾶσαν μουσικήν ἐστιν τρόπων μιμήματα βελτιόνων καὶ χειρόνων ἀνθρώπων;
Do we believe our previous discourses, in which we said that rhythms and all music are imitations of the characters of better and worse men?
ἢ πῶς;
Or how?
ΚΛ. οὐδαμῶς ἄλλως πως τό γε παρʼ ἡμῖν δόγμα ἔχον ἂν εἴη.
CL.: In no other way indeed could our opinion be held.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν, φαμέν, ἅπασαν μηχανητέον μηχανὴν ὅπως ἂν ἡμῖν οἱ παῖδες μήτε ἐπιθυμῶσιν ἄλλων μιμημάτων ἅπτεσθαι κατὰ ὀρχήσεις ἢ κατὰ μελῳδίας, μήτε τις αὐτοὺς πείσῃ προσάγων παντοίας ἡδονάς;
ATH.: Therefore, we say, must we not devise every means so that our children may neither desire to touch other imitations in dances or in songs, nor anyone persuade them by offering all kinds of pleasures?
ΚΛ. ὀρθότατα λέγεις.
CL.: You speak most rightly.
§7.799ΑΘ. ἔχει τις οὖν ἡμῶν ἐπὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα βελτίω τινα τέχνην τῆς τῶν Αἰγυπτίων;
ATH.: Has any of us then, for such things, any better art than that of the Egyptians?
ΚΛ. ποίας δὴ λέγεις;
CL.: What kind do you mean?
ΑΘ. τοῦ καθιερῶσαι πᾶσαν μὲν ὄρχησιν, πάντα δὲ μέλη, τάξαντας πρῶτον μὲν τὰς ἑορτάς, συλλογισαμένους εἰς τὸν ἐνιαυτὸν ἅστινας ἐν οἷς χρόνοις καὶ οἷστισιν ἑκάστοις τῶν θεῶν καὶ παισὶ τούτων καὶ δαίμοσι γίγνεσθαι χρεών, μετὰ δὲ τοῦτο, ἐπὶ τοῖς τῶν θεῶν θύμασιν ἑκάστοις ἣν ᾠδὴν δεῖ ἐφυμνεῖσθαι, καὶ χορείαις ποίαισιν γεραίρειν τὴν τότε θυσίαν, τάξαι μὲν πρῶτόν τινας, ἃ δʼ ἂν ταχθῇ, Μοίραις καὶ τοῖς ἄλλοις πᾶσι θεοῖς θύσαντας κοινῇ πάντας τοὺς πολίτας, σπένδοντας καθιεροῦν ἑκάστας τὰς ᾠδὰς ἑκάστοις τῶν θεῶν καὶ τῶν ἄλλων· ἂν δὲ παρʼ αὐτά τίς τῳ θεῶν ἄλλους ὕμνους ἢ χορείας προσάγῃ, τοὺς ἱερέας τε καὶ τὰς ἱερείας μετὰ νομοφυλάκων ἐξείργοντας ὁσίως ἐξείργειν καὶ κατὰ νόμον, τὸν δὲ ἐξειργόμενον, ἂν μὴ ἑκὼν ἐξείργηται, δίκας ἀσεβείας διὰ βίου παντὸς τῷ ἐθελήσαντι παρέχειν.
ATH.: That of consecrating all dance and all songs, having first established the festivals, calculating for the year which ones at what times and to which of the gods and their children and spirits they ought to be performed; and after this, what song must be sung as praise for each of the sacrifices to the gods, and with what dances they should honor that sacrifice at the time, first having certain persons arrange them, and what has been arranged, all the citizens together having sacrificed to the Fates and all the other gods, making libations, should consecrate each of the songs to each of the gods and the others; and if anyone besides these offers other hymns or dances to any of the gods, the priests and priestesses together with the guardians of the laws, holily and according to the law, should exclude him, and if he who is excluded does not submit willingly, he shall be liable to suits of impiety for his whole life to anyone who wishes to prosecute.
ΚΛ. ὀρθῶς.
CL.: Correct.
ΑΘ. πρὸς τούτῳ δὴ νῦν γενόμενοι τῷ λόγῳ, πάθωμεν τὸ πρέπον ἡμῖν αὐτοῖς.
ATH.: Having now arrived at this point in our discourse, let us experience what is becoming to ourselves.
ΚΛ. τοῦ πέρι λέγεις;
CL.: Concerning what do you speak?
ΑΘ. πᾶς που νέος, μὴ ὅτι πρεσβύτης, ἰδὼν ἂν ἢ καὶ ἀκούσας ὁτιοῦν τῶν ἐκτόπων καὶ μηδαμῇ πως συνήθων, οὐκ ἄν ποτέ που τὸ ἀπορηθὲν περὶ αὐτῶν συγχωρήσειεν ἐπιδραμὼν οὕτως εὐθύς, στὰς δʼ ἄν, καθάπερ ἐν τριόδῳ γενόμενος καὶ μὴ σφόδρα κατειδὼς ὁδόν, εἴτε μόνος εἴτε μετʼ ἄλλων τύχοι πορευόμενος, ἀνέροιτʼ ἂν αὑτὸν καὶ τοὺς ἄλλους τὸ ἀπορούμενον, καὶ οὐκ ἂν πρότερον ὁρμήσειεν, πρίν πῃ βεβαιώσαιτο τὴν σκέψιν τῆς πορείας ὅπῃ ποτὲ φέρει.
ATH.: Every young man, not to mention an old one, seeing or hearing anything strange and in no way familiar, would never readily agree and run along with the difficulty raised about it, but would stand, as if at a crossroads and not knowing the way very well, whether traveling alone or with others, and would ask himself and the others about the difficulty, and would not set out before he should somehow confirm his inquiry as to where the journey leads.
καὶ δὴ καὶ τὸ παρὸν ἡμῖν ὡσαύτως ποιητέον· ἀτόπου γὰρ τὰ νῦν ἐμπεπτωκότος λόγου περὶ νόμων, ἀνάγκη που σκέψιν πᾶσαν ποιήσασθαι, καὶ μὴ ῥᾳδίως οὕτως περὶ τοσούτων τηλικούτους ὄντας φάναι διισχυριζομένους ἐν τῷ παραχρῆμά τι σαφὲς ἂν εἰπεῖν ἔχειν.
And indeed, we must do likewise in the present case; for since a very strange discourse concerning laws has now befallen us, we must of necessity make every investigation, and not so easily, being of such an age and concerning such great matters, assert confidently that we can say something clear on the spot.
ΚΛ. ἀληθέστατα λέγεις.
CL.: You speak most truly.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν τούτῳ μὲν χρόνον δώσομεν, βεβαιώσομεν δὲ τότε αὐτό, ὁπόταν σκεψώμεθα ἱκανῶς· ἵνα δὲ μὴ τὴν ἑπομένην τάξιν τοῖς νόμοις τοῖς νῦν ἡμῖν παροῦσι διαπεράνασθαι κωλυθῶμεν μάτην, ἴωμεν πρὸς τὸ τέλος αὐτῶν.
ATH.: Therefore we shall give time to this, and we shall confirm it then, when we have investigated it sufficiently; but so that we may not be vainly prevented from completing the order following the laws now before us, let us proceed to their end.
τάχα γὰρ ἴσως, εἰ θεὸς ἐθέλοι, κἂν ἡ διέξοδος αὕτη ὅλη σχοῦσα τέλος ἱκανῶς ἂν μηνύσειε καὶ τὸ νῦν διαπορούμενον.
For perhaps, if God wills, this entire exposition, when it reaches its end, will also sufficiently clarify the point now in difficulty.
ΚΛ. ἄριστʼ, ὦ ξένε, λέγεις, καὶ ποιῶμεν οὕτως ὡς εἴρηκας.
CL.: You speak best, O stranger, and let us do as you have said.