§3.693ΑΘ. οὐδʼ αὖ ἀμύνασθαι τήν γε Ἑλλάδα λέγων ὀρθῶς ἂν λέγοι, ἀλλʼ εἰ μὴ τό τε Ἀθηναίων καὶ τὸ Λακεδαιμονίων κοινῇ διανόημα ἤμυνεν τὴν ἐπιοῦσαν δουλείαν, σχεδὸν ἂν ἤδη πάντʼ ἦν μεμειγμένα τὰ τῶν Ἑλλήνων γένη ἐν ἀλλήλοις, καὶ βάρβαρα ἐν Ἕλλησι καὶ Ἑλληνικὰ ἐν βαρβάροις, καθάπερ ὧν Πέρσαι τυραννοῦσι τὰ νῦν διαπεφορημένα καὶ συμπεφορημένα κακῶς ἐσπαρμένα κατοικεῖται.
ATH. And again, one who says that Greece defended herself would not speak correctly; but if the common resolve of both the Athenians and the Lacedaemonians had not warded off the impending slavery, almost all the races of the Greeks would by now have been mixed with one another—barbarians among Greeks and Greeks among barbarians, just as those over whom the Persians now rule tyrannically live scattered and huddled together, badly dispersed.
ταῦτʼ, ὦ Κλεινία καὶ Μέγιλλε, ἔχομεν ἐπιτιμᾶν τοῖς τε πάλαι πολιτικοῖς λεγομένοις καὶ νομοθέταις καὶ τοῖς νῦν, ἵνα τὰς αἰτίας αὐτῶν ἀναζητοῦντες, ἀνευρίσκωμεν τί παρὰ ταῦτα ἔδει πράττειν ἄλλο· οἷον δὴ καὶ τὸ παρὸν εἴπομεν, ὡς ἄρα οὐ δεῖ μεγάλας ἀρχὰς οὐδʼ αὖ ἀμείκτους νομοθετεῖν, διανοηθέντας τὸ τοιόνδε, ὅτι πόλιν ἐλευθέραν τε εἶναι δεῖ καὶ ἔμφρονα καὶ ἑαυτῇ φίλην, καὶ τὸν νομοθετοῦντα πρὸς ταῦτα βλέποντα δεῖ νομοθετεῖν.
These are the things, Clinias and Megillus, for which we have reason to blame those who of old were called politicians and legislators, as well as those of today, in order that, by searching out their causes, we may discover what else ought to have been done instead of this; just as indeed we said in the present case, that one must not legislate great or unmixed ruling powers, bearing in mind this sort of thing: that a city must be free and wise and friendly to itself, and that the legislator must legislate with his eyes on these things.
μὴ θαυμάσωμεν δὲ εἰ πολλάκις ἤδη προθέμενοι ἄττα, εἰρήκαμεν ὅτι πρὸς ταῦτα δεῖ νομοθετεῖν βλέποντα τὸν νομοθέτην, τὰ δὲ προτεθέντα οὐ ταὐτὰ ἡμῖν φαίνεται ἑκάστοτε· ἀλλὰ ἀναλογίζεσθαι χρή, ὅταν πρὸς τὸ σωφρονεῖν φῶμεν δεῖν βλέπειν, ἢ πρὸς φρόνησιν ἢ φιλίαν, ὡς ἔσθʼ οὗτος ὁ σκοπὸς οὐχ ἕτερος ἀλλʼ ὁ αὐτός, καὶ ἄλλα δὴ πολλὰ ἡμᾶς τοιαῦτα ἂν γίγνηται ῥήματα μὴ διαταραττέτω.
Let us not wonder if, though we have already proposed certain goals many times and said that the legislator must legislate looking to these, the goals proposed do not seem to us to be the same each time; but we must reflect that when we say one must look to temperance, or to wisdom, or to friendship, this target is not different but the same; and indeed let many other such expressions not disturb us if they occur.
ΚΛ. πειρασόμεθα ποιεῖν οὕτως ἐπανιόντες τοὺς λόγους· καὶ νῦν δὴ τὸ περὶ τῆς φιλίας τε καὶ φρονήσεως καὶ ἐλευθερίας, πρὸς ὅτι βουλόμενος ἔμελλες λέγειν δεῖν στοχάζεσθαι τὸν νομοθέτην, λέγε.
CL. We will try to do so as we review the arguments; and now indeed, tell us concerning friendship, wisdom, and freedom, with what intention you were going to say that the legislator must aim at them.
ΑΘ. ἄκουσον δή νυν.
ATH. Listen then.
εἰσὶν πολιτειῶν οἷον μητέρες δύο τινές, ἐξ ὧν τὰς ἄλλας γεγονέναι λέγων ἄν τις ὀρθῶς λέγοι, καὶ τὴν μὲν προσαγορεύειν μοναρχίαν ὀρθόν, τὴν δʼ αὖ δημοκρατίαν, καὶ τῆς μὲν τὸ Περσῶν γένος ἄκρον ἔχειν, τῆς δὲ ἡμᾶς·
There are two kinds of mother-constitutions, as it were, from which if one were to say the others have arisen, he would speak correctly; and it is right to call the one monarchy and the other democracy.
αἱ δʼ ἄλλαι σχεδὸν ἅπασαι, καθάπερ εἶπον, ἐκ τούτων εἰσὶ διαπεποικιλμέναι.
Of the one, the Persian race has the extreme, and of the other, we do; and almost all the others, as I said, are varied combinations of these.
δεῖ δὴ οὖν καὶ ἀναγκαῖον μεταλαβεῖν ἀμφοῖν τούτοιν, εἴπερ ἐλευθερία τʼ ἔσται καὶ φιλία μετὰ φρονήσεως· ὃ δὴ βούλεται ἡμῖν ὁ λόγος προστάττειν, λέγων ὡς οὐκ ἄν ποτε τούτων πόλις ἄμοιρος γενομένη πολιτευθῆναι δύναιτʼ ἂν καλῶς.
Therefore, it is necessary and essential to partake of both of these, if indeed there is to be freedom and friendship accompanied by wisdom; which indeed is what our argument wishes to enjoin, saying that a city could never be well governed if it becomes destitute of these.
ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ ἄν;
CL. Indeed, how could it?
§3.694ΑΘ. ἡ μὲν τοίνυν τὸ μοναρχικόν, ἡ δὲ τὸ ἐλεύθερον ἀγαπήσασα μειζόνως ἢ ἔδει μόνον, οὐδετέρα τὰ μέτρια κέκτηται τούτων, αἱ δὲ ὑμέτεραι, ἥ τε Λακωνικὴ καὶ Κρητική, μᾶλλον·
ATH. Now then, the one having cherished the monarchical element and the other the free element more than was proper, neither has acquired the moderate measure of these; but your constitutions, both the Laconian and the Cretan, possess it more.
Ἀθηναῖοι δὲ καὶ Πέρσαι τὸ μὲν πάλαι οὕτω πως, τὸ νῦν δὲ ἧττον.
The Athenians and the Persians did so of old, in a way, but now less so.
τὰ δʼ αἴτια διέλθωμεν· ἦ γάρ;
Let us go through the causes of this; shall we?
ΚΛ. πάντως, εἴ γέ που μέλλομεν ὃ προυθέμεθα περαίνειν.
CL. By all means, if we are to complete what we proposed.
ΑΘ. ἀκούωμεν δή.
ATH. Let us listen then.
Πέρσαι γάρ, ὅτε μὲν τὸ μέτριον μᾶλλον δουλείας τε καὶ ἐλευθερίας ἦγον ἐπὶ Κύρου, πρῶτον μὲν ἐλεύθεροι ἐγένοντο, ἔπειτα δὲ ἄλλων πολλῶν δεσπόται.
For the Persians, when under Cyrus they maintained a moderate measure between slavery and freedom, became first free themselves, and then masters of many others.
ἐλευθερίας γὰρ ἄρχοντες μεταδιδόντες ἀρχομένοις καὶ ἐπὶ τὸ ἴσον ἄγοντες, μᾶλλον φίλοι τε ἦσαν στρατιῶται στρατηγοῖς καὶ προθύμους αὑτοὺς ἐν τοῖς κινδύνοις παρείχοντο·
For as rulers, sharing freedom with their subjects and bringing them to equality, the soldiers were friendlier to their generals, and showed themselves eager in times of danger.
καὶ εἴ τις αὖ φρόνιμος ἦν ἐν αὐτοῖς καὶ βουλεύειν δυνατός, οὐ φθονεροῦ τοῦ βασιλέως ὄντος, διδόντος δὲ παρρησίαν καὶ τιμῶντος τοὺς εἴς τι δυναμένους συμβουλεύειν, κοινὴν τὴν τοῦ φρονεῖν εἰς τὸ μέσον παρείχετο δύναμιν, καὶ πάντα δὴ τότε ἐπέδωκεν αὐτοῖς διʼ ἐλευθερίαν τε καὶ φιλίαν καὶ νοῦ κοινωνίαν.
And furthermore, if anyone among them was wise and capable of giving counsel, since the king was not envious but granted freedom of speech and honored those capable of advising on anything, he brought his power of wisdom into the common stock; and indeed everything then advanced for them because of freedom, friendship, and the sharing of intellect.
ΚΛ. ἔοικέν γέ πως τὰ λεγόμενα οὕτω γεγονέναι.
CL. What you say certainly seems to have happened in that way.
ΑΘ. πῇ δὴ οὖν ποτε ἀπώλετο ἐπὶ Καμβύσου καὶ πάλιν ἐπὶ Δαρείου σχεδὸν ἐσώθη;
ATH. How then did it ever perish under Cambyses, and was saved again, as it were, under Darius?
βούλεσθε οἷον μαντείᾳ διανοηθέντες χρώμεθα;
Would you like us to use a sort of divination in our thinking?
ΚΛ. φέρει γοῦν ἡμῖν σκέψιν τοῦτο ἐφʼ ὅπερ ὡρμήκαμεν.
CL. At any rate, this leads us to the investigation on which we have set out.
ΑΘ. μαντεύομαι δὴ νῦν περί γε Κύρου, τὰ μὲν ἄλλʼ αὐτὸν στρατηγόν τε ἀγαθὸν εἶναι καὶ φιλόπολιν, παιδείας δὲ ὀρθῆς οὐχ ἧφθαι τὸ παράπαν, οἰκονομίᾳ τε οὐδὲν τὸν νοῦν προσεσχηκέναι.
ATH. I divine then now concerning Cyrus, that in other respects he was a good general and a lover of his city, but that he had not touched correct education at all, and had not applied his mind to household management.
ΚΛ. πῶς δὴ τὸ τοιοῦτον φῶμεν;
CL. How indeed can we say such a thing?
ΑΘ. ἔοικεν ἐκ νέου στρατεύεσθαι διὰ βίου, ταῖς γυναιξὶν παραδοὺς τοὺς παῖδας τρέφειν.
ATH. He seems to have campaigned from his youth through his whole life, handing over his children to the women to rear.
αἱ δὲ ὡς εὐδαίμονας αὐτοὺς ἐκ τῶν παίδων εὐθὺς καὶ μακαρίους ἤδη γεγονότας καὶ ἐπιδεεῖς ὄντας τούτων οὐδενὸς ἔτρεφον· κωλύουσαι δὲ ὡς οὖσιν ἱκανῶς εὐδαίμοσιν μήτε αὐτοῖς ἐναντιοῦσθαι μηδένα εἰς μηδέν, ἐπαινεῖν τε ἀναγκάζουσαι πάντας τὸ λεγόμενον ἢ πραττόμενον ὑπʼ αὐτῶν, ἔθρεψαν τοιούτους τινάς.
And they reared them as though they were already happy and blessed straight from childhood, and in need of none of these things; and preventing anyone from opposing them in anything, on the ground that they were sufficiently happy, and forcing everyone to praise whatever was said or done by them, they reared them to be such men.
ΚΛ. καλήν, ὡς ἔοικας, τροφὴν εἴρηκας.
CL. A fine rearing indeed, as it seems, you have described.
ΑΘ. γυναικείαν μὲν οὖν βασιλίδων γυναικῶν νεωστὶ γεγονυιῶν πλουσίων, καὶ ἐν ἀνδρῶν ἐρημίᾳ, διὰ τὸ μὴ σχολάζειν ὑπὸ πολέμων καὶ πολλῶν κινδύνων, τοὺς παῖδας τρεφουσῶν.
ATH. Indeed, a womanish one, of royal women who had recently become wealthy, rearing children in the absence of men because they had no leisure due to wars and many dangers.
ΚΛ. ἔχει γὰρ λόγον.
CL. Yes, that makes sense.