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Plato · Timaeus §26-27

The Plan of Discourse and the Speaking Order of Timaeus and Critias

Passage 6 of 41 · Greek

Summary

Critias proposes a plan to identify the ideal citizens described by Socrates with the historical Athenians of old, setting an order for the 'feast of discourse' where Timaeus will first speak on the generation of the cosmos and humans, followed by Critias on human history.

§26ΚΡ. οὐ μὴν ἐβουλήθην παραχρῆμα εἰπεῖν· διὰ χρόνου γὰρ οὐχ ἱκανῶς ἐμεμνήμην.
Critias: I did not, however, wish to speak immediately, because after so much time I did not remember it sufficiently.
ἐνενόησα οὖν ὅτι χρεὼν εἴη με πρὸς ἐμαυτὸν πρῶτον ἱκανῶς πάντα ἀναλαβόντα λέγειν οὕτως.
I realized, therefore, that it was necessary for me first to recover everything sufficiently by myself and only then to speak.
ὅθεν ταχὺ συνωμολόγησά σοι τὰ ἐπιταχθέντα χθές, ἡγούμενος, ὅπερ ἐν ἅπασι τοῖς τοιοῖσδε μέγιστον ἔργον, λόγον τινὰ πρέποντα τοῖς βουλήμασιν ὑποθέσθαι, τούτου μετρίως ἡμᾶς εὐπορήσειν.
Hence I quickly agreed to your instructions yesterday, thinking that we should be moderately well supplied for what is the greatest task in all such matters—namely, to lay down a fitting proposal for our intentions.
οὕτω δή, καθάπερ ὅδʼ εἶπεν, χθές τε εὐθὺς ἐνθένδε ἀπιὼν πρὸς τούσδε ἀνέφερον αὐτὰ ἀναμιμνῃσκόμενος, ἀπελθών τε σχεδόν τι πάντα ἐπισκοπῶν τῆς νυκτὸς ἀνέλαβον.
Thus, as he said, yesterday as soon as I left here I began to relate these things to them, recalling them, and after I went away, by reviewing almost everything during the night, I recovered them.
ὡς δή τοι, τὸ λεγόμενον, τὰ παίδων μαθήματα θαυμαστὸν ἔχει τι μνημεῖον.
How indeed, as the saying goes, what we learn as children has a wonderful way of remaining in the memory!
ἐγὼ γὰρ ἃ μὲν χθὲς ἤκουσα, οὐκ ἂν οἶδʼ εἰ δυναίμην ἅπαντα ἐν μνήμῃ πάλιν λαβεῖν· ταῦτα δὲ ἃ πάμπολυν χρόνον διακήκοα, παντάπασι θαυμάσαιμʼ ἂν εἴ τί με αὐτῶν διαπέφευγεν.
I do not know if I could recall in memory all that I heard yesterday, but as for these things which I heard a very long time ago, I should be completely amazed if any of them had escaped me.
ἦν μὲν οὖν μετὰ πολλῆς ἡδονῆς καὶ παιδιᾶς τότε ἀκουόμενα, καὶ τοῦ πρεσβύτου προθύμως με διδάσκοντος, ἅτʼ ἐμοῦ πολλάκις ἐπανερωτῶντος, ὥστε οἷον ἐγκαύματα ἀνεκπλύτου γραφῆς ἔμμονά μοι γέγονεν·
They were heard then with great pleasure and amusement, and since the old man was teaching me eagerly as I repeatedly questioned him, they have become fixed in me like the encaustic burnings of an indelible writing.
καὶ δὴ καὶ τοῖσδε εὐθὺς ἔλεγον ἕωθεν αὐτὰ ταῦτα, ἵνα εὐποροῖεν λόγων μετʼ ἐμοῦ.
And indeed, I was telling these very things to them early this morning, so that they might be well supplied with words along with me.
νῦν οὖν, οὗπερ ἕνεκα πάντα ταῦτα εἴρηται, λέγειν εἰμὶ ἕτοιμος, ὦ Σώκρατες, μὴ μόνον ἐν κεφαλαίοις ἀλλʼ ὥσπερ ἤκουσα καθʼ ἕκαστον·
Now, therefore, to come to the point for which all this has been said, I am ready to speak, Socrates, not only in summary but in detail, just as I heard it.
τοὺς δὲ πολίτας καὶ τὴν πόλιν ἣν χθὲς ἡμῖν ὡς ἐν μύθῳ διῄεισθα σύ, νῦν μετενεγκόντες ἐπὶ τἀληθὲς δεῦρο θήσομεν ὡς ἐκείνην τήνδε οὖσαν, καὶ τοὺς πολίτας οὓς διενοοῦ φήσομεν ἐκείνους τοὺς ἀληθινοὺς εἶναι προγόνους ἡμῶν, οὓς ἔλεγεν ὁ ἱερεύς.
And the citizens and the city which you described to us yesterday as if in a myth, we shall now transfer to reality and place here, assuming that that city is this one, and we shall say that the citizens you were conceiving are those true ancestors of ours whom the priest spoke of.
πάντως ἁρμόσουσι καὶ οὐκ ἀπᾳσόμεθα λέγοντες αὐτοὺς εἶναι τοὺς ἐν τῷ τότε ὄντας χρόνῳ.
They will harmonize in every way, and we shall not be out of tune in saying that they are the ones who existed at that time.
κοινῇ δὲ διαλαμβάνοντες ἅπαντες πειρασόμεθα τὸ πρέπον εἰς δύναμιν οἷς ἐπέταξας ἀποδοῦναι.
Taking up our parts in common, we shall all try, as far as we can, to return a fitting response to your instructions.
σκοπεῖν οὖν δὴ χρή, ὦ Σώκρατες, εἰ κατὰ νοῦν ὁ λόγος ἡμῖν οὗτος, ἤ τινα ἔτʼ ἄλλον ἀντʼ αὐτοῦ ζητητέον.
We must therefore consider, Socrates, whether this plan is to our mind, or whether we must still seek some other instead of it.
§27ΣΩ. καὶ τίνʼ ἄν, ὦ Κριτία, μᾶλλον ἀντὶ τούτου μεταλάβοιμεν, ὃς τῇ τε παρούσῃ τῆς θεοῦ θυσίᾳ διὰ τὴν οἰκειότητʼ ἂν πρέποι μάλιστα, τό τε μὴ πλασθέντα μῦθον ἀλλʼ ἀληθινὸν λόγον εἶναι πάμμεγά που.
Socrates: And what other, Critias, should we take in place of this one, which, because of its affinity, would be most appropriate for the present sacrifice to the goddess, and above all, because it is not a fabricated myth but a true history, which is of greatest importance?
πῶς γὰρ καὶ πόθεν ἄλλους ἀνευρήσομεν ἀφέμενοι τούτων;
How and from where indeed shall we find others if we abandon these?
οὐκ ἔστιν, ἀλλʼ ἀγαθῇ τύχῃ χρὴ λέγειν μὲν ὑμᾶς, ἐμὲ δὲ ἀντὶ τῶν χθὲς λόγων νῦν ἡσυχίαν ἄγοντα ἀντακούειν.
It is not possible; rather, with good fortune, you must speak, while I, in return for yesterday's words, must now keep quiet and listen in turn.
ΚΡ. σκόπει δὴ τὴν τῶν ξενίων σοι διάθεσιν, ὦ Σώκρατες, ᾗ διέθεμεν.
Critias: Consider now, Socrates, the arrangement of our guest-gifts to you, how we have arranged them.
ἔδοξεν γὰρ ἡμῖν Τίμαιον μέν, ἅτε ὄντα ἀστρονομικώτατον ἡμῶν καὶ περὶ φύσεως τοῦ παντὸς εἰδέναι μάλιστα ἔργον πεποιημένον, πρῶτον λέγειν ἀρχόμενον ἀπὸ τῆς τοῦ κόσμου γενέσεως, τελευτᾶν δὲ εἰς ἀνθρώπων φύσιν· ἐμὲ δὲ μετὰ τοῦτον, ὡς παρὰ μὲν τούτου δεδεγμένον ἀνθρώπους τῷ λόγῳ γεγονότας, παρὰ σοῦ δὲ πεπαιδευμένους διαφερόντως αὐτῶν τινας, κατὰ δὲ τὸν Σόλωνος λόγον τε καὶ νόμον εἰσαγαγόντα αὐτοὺς ὡς εἰς δικαστὰς ἡμᾶς ποιῆσαι πολίτας τῆς πόλεως τῆσδε ὡς ὄντας τοὺς τότε Ἀθηναίους, οὓς ἐμήνυσεν ἀφανεῖς ὄντας ἡ τῶν ἱερῶν γραμμάτων φήμη, τὰ λοιπὰ δὲ ὡς περὶ πολιτῶν καὶ Ἀθηναίων ὄντων ἤδη ποιεῖσθαι τοὺς λόγους.
For we decided that Timaeus, since he is the most astronomical of us and has made it his chief task to know about the nature of the universe, should speak first, beginning from the generation of the cosmos and ending with the nature of humans; and that I, after him, receiving from him the humans who have been created in speech, and from you some of them who have been exceptionally educated, and bringing them, in accordance with the account and law of Solon, as if before us as judges, should make them citizens of this city, on the ground that they are those Athenians of that time whom the report of the sacred writings revealed to have disappeared, and that we should make the rest of our speeches on the assumption that they are already our citizens and Athenians.
ΣΩ. τελέως τε καὶ λαμπρῶς ἔοικα ἀνταπολήψεσθαι τὴν τῶν λόγων ἑστίασιν.
Socrates: It seems I am going to receive a complete and splendid feast of words in return.
σὸν οὖν ἔργον λέγειν ἄν, ὦ Τίμαιε, τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο, ὡς ἔοικεν, εἴη καλέσαντα κατὰ νόμον θεούς.
It would be your task to speak next, Timaeus, as it seems, after having called upon the gods according to custom.
ΤΙ. ἀλλʼ, ὦ Σώκρατες, τοῦτό γε δὴ πάντες ὅσοι καὶ κατὰ βραχὺ σωφροσύνης μετέχουσιν, ἐπὶ παντὸς ὁρμῇ καὶ σμικροῦ καὶ μεγάλου πράγματος θεὸν ἀεί που καλοῦσιν·
Timaeus: But, Socrates, all who possess even a small share of wisdom always call upon a god at the beginning of any undertaking, whether small or great.
ἡμᾶς δὲ τοὺς περὶ τοῦ παντὸς λόγους ποιεῖσθαί πῃ μέλλοντας, ᾗ γέγονεν ἢ καὶ ἀγενές ἐστιν, εἰ μὴ παντάπασι παραλλάττομεν, ἀνάγκη θεούς τε καὶ θεὰς ἐπικαλουμένους εὔχεσθαι πάντα κατὰ νοῦν ἐκείνοις μὲν μάλιστα, ἑπομένως δὲ ἡμῖν εἰπεῖν.
And we who are about to make our speeches somehow concerning the universe—how it has generated or even if it is ungenerated—unless we are completely out of our minds, must pray to the gods and goddesses, invoking them that we may speak everything above all in accordance with their mind, and consequently in a way that is consistent for us.
καὶ τὰ μὲν περὶ θεῶν ταύτῃ παρακεκλήσθω· τὸ δʼ ἡμέτερον παρακλητέον, ᾗ ῥᾷστʼ ἂν ὑμεῖς μὲν μάθοιτε, ἐγὼ δὲ ᾗ διανοοῦμαι μάλιστʼ ἂν περὶ τῶν προκειμένων ἐνδειξαίμην.
Let this be our invocation concerning the gods; but we must also invoke our own side, so that you may learn most easily, and I may best exhibit my thoughts on the proposed subjects.

Notes

  1. 26bοὐκ ἂν οἶδʼ εἰ δυναίμην — The particle ἄν goes not with οἶδα but with the optative δυναίμην in the indirect question clause, expressing potentiality ('whether I should be able'). This is an example of hyperbaton.
  2. 27aδεδεγμένον — The perfect middle/passive participle of δέχομαι (accusative masculine singular). In the accusative-and-infinitive construction (ἐμὲ δὲ ... ποιῆσαι) dependent on the impersonal ἔδοξεν in the preceding clause, it agrees with the accusative pronoun ἐμέ, the subject of the infinitive. It is not an accusative absolute.
  3. 27bὡς εἰς δικαστὰς ἡμᾶς — The particle ὡς used with the preposition εἰς marks destination or intention ('as if before...'). ἡμᾶς (us) is in the accusative governed by εἰς and stands in apposition to δικαστάς (judges), meaning 'as if before us as judges'.

Cite this passage

Plato, Timaeus §26-27. Humanitext Reader, https://reader.humanitext.ai/en/text/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0059.tlg031.humanitext-grc2:26-27

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