§19ΣΩ. καὶ μὴν ὅτι γε τὰ μὲν τῶν ἀγαθῶν θρεπτέον ἔφαμεν εἶναι, τὰ δὲ τῶν κακῶν εἰς τὴν ἄλλην λάθρᾳ διαδοτέον πόλιν· ἐπαυξανομένων δὲ σκοποῦντας ἀεὶ τοὺς ἀξίους πάλιν ἀνάγειν δεῖν, τοὺς δὲ παρὰ σφίσιν ἀναξίους εἰς τὴν τῶν ἐπανιόντων χώραν μεταλλάττειν;
Socrates: And indeed, did we not say that the children of the good must be reared, but those of the bad must be secretly distributed to the other parts of the state; and as they grow up, we must keep watch and lead back those who are worthy, while transferring the unworthy among them to the place of those who are returning?
ΤΙ. οὕτως.
Timaeus: Just so.
ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν δὴ διεληλύθαμεν ἤδη καθάπερ χθές, ὡς ἐν κεφαλαίοις πάλιν ἐπανελθεῖν, ἢ ποθοῦμεν ἔτι τι τῶν ῥηθέντων, ὦ φίλε Γίμαιε, ὡς ἀπολειπόμενον;
Socrates: Have we then already gone through everything, just as yesterday, so as to review it in summary, or do we still miss any of the things said, my dear Timaeus, as having been left out?
ΤΙ. οὐδαμῶς, ἀλλὰ αὐτὰ ταῦτʼ ἦν τὰ λεχθέντα, ὦ Σώκρατες.
Timaeus: By no means, Socrates; these were the very things that were said.
ΣΩ. ἀκούοιτʼ ἂν ἤδη τὰ μετὰ ταῦτα περὶ τῆς πολιτείας ἣν διήλθομεν, οἷόν τι πρὸς αὐτὴν πεπονθὼς τυγχάνω.
Socrates: Now you may hear what follows concerning the state we described, and how I happen to feel towards it.
προσέοικεν δὲ δή τινί μοι τοιῷδε τὸ πάθος, οἷον εἴ τις ζῷα καλά που θεασάμενος, εἴτε ὑπὸ γραφῆς εἰργασμένα εἴτε καὶ ζῶντα ἀληθινῶς ἡσυχίαν δὲ ἄγοντα, εἰς ἐπιθυμίαν ἀφίκοιτο θεάσασθαι κινούμενά τε αὐτὰ καί τι τῶν τοῖς σώμασιν δοκούντων προσήκειν κατὰ τὴν ἀγωνίαν ἀθλοῦντα· ταὐτὸν καὶ ἐγὼ πέπονθα πρὸς τὴν πόλιν ἣν διήλθομεν.
My feeling seems to be somewhat like this: as if someone, having gazed upon beautiful animals somewhere, whether depicted in a painting or actually alive but remaining at rest, should be seized with a desire to behold them in motion and contesting in some of those exercises which seem to belong to their bodies; this is the very same thing that I have felt towards the city we described.
ἡδέως γὰρ ἄν του λόγῳ διεξιόντος ἀκούσαιμʼ ἂν ἄθλους οὓς πόλις ἀθλεῖ, τούτους αὐτὴν ἀγωνιζομένην πρὸς πόλεις ἄλλας, πρεπόντως εἴς τε πόλεμον ἀφικομένην καὶ ἐν τῷ πολεμεῖν τὰ προσήκοντα ἀποδιδοῦσαν τῇ παιδείᾳ καὶ τροφῇ κατά τε τὰς ἐν τοῖς ἔργοις πράξεις καὶ κατὰ τὰς ἐν τοῖς λόγοις διερμηνεύσεις πρὸς ἑκάστας τῶν πόλεων.
For I would gladly hear someone describing in speech the struggles which a city struggles, contending against other cities, coming fittingly to war, and in the waging of war rendering what is appropriate to its education and training, both in actions in deeds and in negotiations in speech with each of the cities.
ταῦτʼ οὖν, ὦ Κριτία καὶ Ἑρμόκρατες, ἐμαυτοῦ μὲν αὐτὸς κατέγνωκα μή ποτʼ ἂν δυνατὸς γενέσθαι τοὺς ἄνδρας καὶ τὴν πόλιν ἱκανῶς ἐγκωμιάσαι.
These things, Critias and Hermocrates, I have convicted myself of never being able to praise these men and the city adequately.
καὶ τὸ μὲν ἐμὸν οὐδὲν θαυμαστόν· ἀλλὰ τὴν αὐτὴν δόξαν εἴληφα καὶ περὶ τῶν πάλαι γεγονότων καὶ περὶ τῶν νῦν ὄντων ποιητῶν, οὔτι τὸ ποιητικὸν ἀτιμάζων γένος, ἀλλὰ παντὶ δῆλον ὡς τὸ μιμητικὸν ἔθνος, οἷς ἂν ἐντραφῇ, ταῦτα μιμήσεται ῥᾷστα καὶ ἄριστα, τὸ δʼ ἐκτὸς τῆς τροφῆς ἑκάστοις γιγνόμενον χαλεπὸν μὲν ἔργοις, ἔτι δὲ χαλεπώτερον λόγοις εὖ μιμεῖσθαι.
And my own case is not surprising; but I have formed the same opinion both about the poets of old and about those of today—not that I dishonor the poetic race, but it is clear to everyone that the imitative tribe will imitate most easily and best those things in which it has been brought up, whereas that which is outside the training of each is difficult to imitate well in deeds, and still more difficult in words.
τὸ δὲ τῶν σοφιστῶν γένος αὖ πολλῶν μὲν λόγων καὶ καλῶν ἄλλων μάλʼ ἔμπειρον ἥγημαι, φοβοῦμαι δὲ μή πως, ἅτε πλανητὸν ὂν κατὰ πόλεις οἰκήσεις τε ἰδίας οὐδαμῇ διῳκηκός, ἄστοχον ἅμα φιλοσόφων ἀνδρῶν ᾖ καὶ πολιτικῶν, ὅσʼ ἂν οἷά τε ἐν πολέμῳ καὶ μάχαις πράττοντες ἔργῳ καὶ λόγῳ προσομιλοῦντες ἑκάστοις πράττοιεν καὶ λέγοιεν.
As for the class of sophists, on the other hand, though I consider them highly experienced in many and beautiful discourses, I fear lest somehow, being a wandering race from city to city and having nowhere settled homes of their own, they might miss the mark of both philosophers and statesmen, in what they would do and say in war and battle, in actual deeds and in verbal negotiations with others.
§20ΣΩ. καταλέλειπται δὴ τὸ τῆς ὑμετέρας ἕξεως γένος, ἅμα ἀμφοτέρων φύσει καὶ τροφῇ μετέχον.
Socrates: There remains, then, the class of your own disposition, sharing in both by nature and education.
Τίμαιός τε γὰρ ὅδε, εὐνομωτάτης ὢν πόλεως τῆς ἐν Ἰταλίᾳ Λοκρίδος, οὐσίᾳ καὶ γένει οὐδενὸς ὕστερος ὢν τῶν ἐκεῖ, τὰς μεγίστας μὲν ἀρχάς τε καὶ τιμὰς τῶν ἐν τῇ πόλει μετακεχείρισται, φιλοσοφίας δʼ αὖ κατʼ ἐμὴν δόξαν ἐπʼ ἄκρον ἁπάσης ἐλήλυθεν·
For Timaeus here, being of Locris in Italy, a city with excellent laws, and second to none there in wealth and birth, has held the greatest offices and honors in his city, and has also, in my opinion, reached the very summit of all philosophy.
Κριτίαν δέ που πάντες οἱ τῇδε ἴσμεν οὐδενὸς ἰδιώτην ὄντα ὧν λέγομεν.
As for Critias, we all in these parts know that he is no novice in any of the matters we are speaking of.
τῆς δὲ Ἑρμοκράτους αὖ περὶ φύσεως καὶ τροφῆς, πρὸς ἅπαντα ταῦτʼ εἶναι ἱκανὴν πολλῶν μαρτυρούντων πιστευτέον.
Again, concerning Hermocrates' nature and education, we must believe the testimony of many who declare that it is sufficient for all these things.
διὸ καὶ χθὲς ἐγὼ διανοούμενος, ὑμῶν δεομένων τὰ περὶ τῆς πολιτείας διελθεῖν, προθύμως ἐχαριζόμην, εἰδὼς ὅτι τὸν ἑξῆς λόγον οὐδένες ἂν ὑμῶν ἐθελόντων ἱκανώτερον ἀποδοῖεν—εἰς γὰρ πόλεμον πρέποντα καταστήσαντες τὴν πόλιν ἅπαντʼ αὐτῇ τὰ προσήκοντα ἀποδοῖτʼ ἂν μόνοι τῶν νῦν—εἰπὼν δὴ τἀπιταχθέντα ἀντεπέταξα ὑμῖν ἃ καὶ νῦν λέγω.
Therefore yesterday, when you asked me to discourse on the state, I gladly gratified you, knowing well that none would return the subsequent discourse more adequately than you if you were willing—for you alone of those now living, having placed the city in a fitting war, could render to it all that is appropriate to it—so, having spoken what was enjoined upon me, I enjoined upon you in turn what I am saying now.
συνωμολογήσατʼ οὖν κοινῇ σκεψάμενοι πρὸς ὑμᾶς αὐτοὺς εἰς νῦν ἀνταποδώσειν μοι τὰ τῶν λόγων ξένια, πάρειμί τε οὖν δὴ κεκοσμημένος ἐπʼ αὐτὰ καὶ πάντων ἑτοιμότατος ὢν δέχεσθαι.
You agreed, therefore, after consulting together among yourselves, to repay me today with the hospitality of your discourses; and so I am present here, adorned for them, and of all men most ready to receive them.
ΕΡ. καὶ μὲν δή, καθάπερ εἶπεν Τίμαιος ὅδε, ὦ Σώκρατες, οὔτε ἐλλείψομεν προθυμίας οὐδὲν οὔτε ἔστιν οὐδεμία πρόφασις ἡμῖν τοῦ μὴ δρᾶν ταῦτα· ὥστε καὶ χθές, εὐθὺς ἐνθένδε ἐπειδὴ παρὰ Κριτίαν πρὸς τὸν ξενῶνα οὗ καὶ καταλύομεν ἀφικόμεθα, καὶ ἔτι πρότερον καθʼ ὁδὸν αὐτὰ ταῦτʼ ἐσκοποῦμεν.
Hermocrates: Indeed, Socrates, just as Timaeus here said, we shall not fail in any zeal, nor have we any excuse for not doing this; so that yesterday, as soon as we arrived from here at Critias' guest-quarters where we are also staying, and even before that on the way, we were considering these very things.
ὅδε οὖν ἡμῖν λόγον εἰσηγήσατο ἐκ παλαιᾶς ἀκοῆς· ὃν καὶ νῦν λέγε, ὦ Κριτία, τῷδε, ἵνα συνδοκιμάσῃ πρὸς τὴν ἐπίταξιν εἴτʼ ἐπιτήδειος εἴτε ἀνεπιτήδειός ἐστι.
He then introduced to us a story from an ancient tradition; tell it now, Critias, to him, so that he may join in judging whether it is suitable or unsuitable for our task.
ΚΡ. ταῦτα χρὴ δρᾶν, εἰ καὶ τῷ τρίτῳ κοινωνῷ Τιμαίῳ συνδοκεῖ.
Critias: This must be done, if our third partner Timaeus also agrees.
ΤΙ. δοκεῖ μήν.
Timaeus: I certainly agree.
ΚΡ. ἄκουε δή, ὦ Σώκρατες, λόγου μάλα μὲν ἀτόπου, παντάπασί γε μὴν ἀληθοῦς, ὡς ὁ τῶν ἑπτὰ σοφώτατος Σόλων ποτʼ ἔφη.
Critias: Hear then, Socrates, a story very strange, yet entirely true, as Solon, the wisest of the seven, once said.
ἦν μὲν οὖν οἰκεῖος καὶ σφόδρα φίλος ἡμῖν Δρωπίδου τοῦ προπάππου, καθάπερ λέγει πολλαχοῦ καὶ αὐτὸς ἐν τῇ ποιήσει·
He was a relative and very dear friend of our great-grandfather Dropides, as he himself says in many places in his poetry.