§17ΣΩ. εἷς, δύο, τρεῖς· ὁ δὲ δὴ τέταρτος ἡμῖν, ὦ φίλε Τίμαιε, ποῦ τῶν χθὲς μὲν δαιτυμόνων, τὰ νῦν δὲ ἑστιατόρων;
Socrates: One, two, three—but where, my dear Timaeus, is our fourth, of those who were guests yesterday, but are hosts today?
ΤΙ. ἀσθένειά τις αὐτῷ συνέπεσεν, ὦ Σώκρατες· οὐ γὰρ ἂν ἑκὼν τῆσδε ἀπελείπετο τῆς συνουσίας.
Timaeus: Some illness has befallen him, Socrates; for he would not willingly have been absent from this gathering.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν σὸν τῶνδέ τε ἔργον καὶ τὸ ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀπόντος ἀναπληροῦν μέρος;
Socrates: Is it not then your task, and the task of those present, to fill his part on behalf of the absent one?
ΤΙ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν, καὶ κατὰ δύναμίν γε οὐδὲν ἐλλείψομεν· οὐδὲ γὰρ ἂν εἴη δίκαιον, χθὲς ὑπὸ σοῦ ξενισθέντας οἷς ἦν πρέπον ξενίοις, μὴ οὐ προθύμως σὲ τοὺς λοιποὺς ἡμῶν ἀνταφεστιᾶν.
Timaeus: Assuredly, and to the best of our ability we shall fail in nothing; for it would not be right, after we were entertained by you yesterday with such hospitality as was fitting, that the rest of us should not eagerly entertain you in return.
ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν μέμνησθε ὅσα ὑμῖν καὶ περὶ ὧν ἐπέταξα εἰπεῖν;
Socrates: Do you remember, then, how many things I enjoined upon you to speak about, and what they were?
ΤΙ. τὰ μὲν μεμνήμεθα, ὅσα δὲ μή, σὺ παρὼν ὑπομνήσεις· μᾶλλον δέ, εἰ μή τί σοι χαλεπόν, ἐξ ἀρχῆς διὰ βραχέων πάλιν ἐπάνελθε αὐτά, ἵνα βεβαιωθῇ μᾶλλον παρʼ ἡμῖν.
Timaeus: Some we remember, and what we do not, you being present will remind us; or rather, if it is not troublesome to you, review them again briefly from the beginning, so that they may be more firmly established in our minds.
ΣΩ. ταῦτʼ ἔσται.
Socrates: It shall be done.
χθές που τῶν ὑπʼ ἐμοῦ ῥηθέντων λόγων περὶ πολιτείας ἦν τὸ κεφάλαιον οἵα τε καὶ ἐξ οἵων ἀνδρῶν ἀρίστη κατεφαίνετʼ ἄν μοι γενέσθαι.
The main point of the discourse I delivered yesterday concerning the state was, I believe, what kind of constitution, and of what sort of men composed, would appear to me to be the best.
ΤΙ. καὶ μάλα γε ἡμῖν, ὦ Σώκρατες, ῥηθεῖσα πᾶσιν κατὰ νοῦν.
Timaeus: And indeed, Socrates, it was spoken entirely to the satisfaction of us all.
ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν οὐ τὸ τῶν γεωργῶν ὅσαι τε ἄλλαι τέχναι πρῶτον ἐν αὐτῇ χωρὶς διειλόμεθα ἀπὸ τοῦ γένους τοῦ τῶν προπολεμησόντων;
Socrates: Did we not, then, first separate in it the class of husbandmen and all other crafts from the class of those who were to fight in defense of the state?
ΤΙ. ναί.
Timaeus: Yes.
ΣΩ. καὶ κατὰ φύσιν δὴ δόντες τὸ καθʼ αὑτὸν ἑκάστῳ πρόσφορον ἓν μόνον ἐπιτήδευμα, μίαν ἑκάστῳ τέχνην, τούτους οὓς πρὸ πάντων ἔδει πολεμεῖν, εἴπομεν ὡς ἄρʼ αὐτοὺς δέοι φύλακας εἶναι μόνον τῆς πόλεως, εἴτε τις ἔξωθεν ἢ καὶ τῶν ἔνδοθεν ἴοι κακουργήσων, δικάζοντας μὲν πρᾴως τοῖς ἀρχομένοις ὑπʼ αὐτῶν καὶ φύσει φίλοις οὖσιν, χαλεποὺς δὲ ἐν ταῖς μάχαις τοῖς ἐντυγχάνουσιν τῶν ἐχθρῶν γιγνομένους.
Socrates: And, assigning to each according to their nature only one occupation suitable to them—one craft to each— concerning those who were bound to fight before all others, we said that they ought to be guardians solely of the state, whether any from without or even from within should go to do harm; administering justice mildly to those who are ruled by them and are friends by nature, but showing themselves harsh in battle to such of their enemies as they encounter.
§18ΤΙ. παντάπασι μὲν οὖν.
Timaeus: Entirely so.
ΣΩ. φύσιν γὰρ οἶμαί τινα τῶν φυλάκων τῆς ψυχῆς ἐλέγομεν ἅμα μὲν θυμοειδῆ, ἅμα δὲ φιλόσοφον δεῖν εἶναι διαφερόντως, ἵνα πρὸς ἑκατέρους δύναιντο ὀρθῶς πρᾷοι καὶ χαλεποὶ γίγνεσθαι.
Socrates: For we said, I think, that the nature of the guardians' souls must be at once spirited and pre-eminently philosophical, so that they might be able to be rightly mild to the one class and harsh to the other.
ΤΙ. ναί.
Timaeus: Yes.
ΣΩ. τί δὲ τροφήν;
Socrates: And what of their training?
ἆρʼ οὐ γυμναστικῇ καὶ μουσικῇ μαθήμασίν τε ὅσα προσήκει τούτοις, ἐν ἅπασι τεθράφθαι;
Were they not to be trained in gymnastics and music, and in all such studies as are suitable for them?
ΤΙ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
Timaeus: Assuredly.
ΣΩ. τοὺς δέ γε οὕτω τραφέντας ἐλέχθη που μήτε χρυσὸν μήτε ἄργυρον μήτε ἄλλο ποτὲ μηδὲν κτῆμα ἑαυτῶν ἴδιον νομίζειν δεῖν, ἀλλʼ ὡς ἐπικούρους μισθὸν λαμβάνοντας τῆς φυλακῆς παρὰ τῶν σῳζομένων ὑπʼ αὐτῶν, ὅσος σώφροσιν μέτριος, ἀναλίσκειν τε δὴ κοινῇ καὶ συνδιαιτωμένους μετὰ ἀλλήλων ζῆν, ἐπιμέλειαν ἔχοντας ἀρετῆς διὰ παντός, τῶν ἄλλων ἐπιτηδευμάτων ἄγοντας σχολήν.
Socrates: And of those thus trained, it was said, I believe, that they must not regard gold or silver or any other possession as their own private property; but rather, like auxiliaries receiving pay for their guardianship from those who are preserved by them—an amount moderate for self-controlled men—they should spend it in common and live together, sharing a common life, continually cultivating virtue and maintaining leisure from all other occupations.
ΤΙ. ἐλέχθη καὶ ταῦτα ταύτῃ.
Timaeus: That also was said in that way.
ΣΩ. καὶ μὲν δὴ καὶ περὶ γυναικῶν ἐπεμνήσθημεν, ὡς τὰς φύσεις τοῖς ἀνδράσιν παραπλησίας εἴη συναρμοστέον, καὶ τὰ ἐπιτηδεύματα πάντα κοινὰ κατά τε πόλεμον καὶ κατὰ τὴν ἄλλην δίαιταν δοτέον πάσαις.
Socrates: And indeed, we also made mention of women, saying that their natures must be harmonized to be nearly resembling those of the men, and that all occupations, both in war and in the rest of life, must be given in common to them all.
ΤΙ. ταύτῃ καὶ ταῦτα ἐλέγετο.
Timaeus: In that way too these things were said.
ΣΩ. τί δὲ δὴ τὸ περὶ τῆς παιδοποιίας;
Socrates: And what of the procreation of children?
ἢ τοῦτο μὲν διὰ τὴν ἀήθειαν τῶν λεχθέντων εὐμνημόνευτον, ὅτι κοινὰ τὰ τῶν γάμων καὶ τὰ τῶν παίδων πᾶσιν ἁπάντων ἐτίθεμεν, μηχανωμένους ὅπως μηδείς ποτε τὸ γεγενημένον αὐτῶν ἰδίᾳ γνώσοιτο, νομιοῦσιν δὲ πάντες πάντας αὐτοὺς ὁμογενεῖς, ἀδελφὰς μὲν καὶ ἀδελφοὺς ὅσοιπερ ἂν τῆς πρεπούσης ἐντὸς ἡλικίας γίγνωνται, τοὺς δʼ ἔμπροσθεν καὶ ἄνωθεν γονέας τε καὶ γονέων προγόνους, τοὺς δʼ εἰς τὸ κάτωθεν ἐκγόνους παῖδάς τε ἐκγόνων;
Or is this easy to remember because of the unusual nature of what was said, namely, that we made marriages and children common to all, contriving that no one should ever recognize his own offspring individually, but that they should all regard one another as of the same family—as sisters and brothers all who were born within the appropriate limits of age, and those before and above them as parents and ancestors of parents, and those below as descendants and children of descendants?
ΤΙ. ναί, καὶ ταῦτα εὐμνημόνευτα ᾗ λέγεις.
Timaeus: Yes, these things also are easy to remember in the way you say.
ΣΩ. ὅπως δὲ δὴ κατὰ δύναμιν εὐθὺς γίγνοιντο ὡς ἄριστοι τὰς φύσεις, ἆρʼ οὐ μεμνήμεθα ὡς τοὺς ἄρχοντας ἔφαμεν καὶ τὰς ἀρχούσας δεῖν εἰς τὴν τῶν γάμων σύνερξιν λάθρᾳ μηχανᾶσθαι κλήροις τισὶν ὅπως οἱ κακοὶ χωρὶς οἵ τʼ ἀγαθοὶ ταῖς ὁμοίαις ἑκάτεροι συλλήξονται, καὶ μή τις αὐτοῖς ἔχθρα διὰ ταῦτα γίγνηται, τύχην ἡγουμένοις αἰτίαν τῆς συλλήξεως;
Socrates: And in order that they might immediately be born with natures as excellent as possible, do we not remember saying that the ruling men and women must secretly contrive, in the joining of marriages, by certain lots, that the bad and the good should each pair with their likes, and that no hostility should arise among them on this account, since they would believe that chance was the cause of their pairing?
ΤΙ. μεμνήμεθα.
Timaeus: We remember.