§8.562τί οὖν;
"What then?" I said.
τετάχθω ἡμῖν κατὰ δημοκρατίαν ὁ τοιοῦτος ἀνήρ, ὡς δημοκρατικὸς ὀρθῶς ἂν προσαγορευόμενος; τετάχθω, ἔφη.
"Shall this man be placed by us on the side of democracy, as one who would be correctly addressed as democratic?" "Let him be so placed," he said.
ἡ καλλίστη δή, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, πολιτεία τε καὶ ὁ κάλλιστος ἀνὴρ λοιπὰ ἂν ἡμῖν εἴη διελθεῖν, τυραννίς τε καὶ τύραννος. κομιδῇ γʼ, ἔφη.
"Then," I said, "the most beautiful constitution and the most beautiful man would remain for us to go through, namely, tyranny and the tyrant." "Very much so," he said.
φέρε δή, τίς τρόπος τυραννίδος, ὦ φίλε ἑταῖρε, γίγνεται; ὅτι μὲν γὰρ ἐκ δημοκρατίας μεταβάλλει σχεδὸν δῆλον.
"Come then, what is the manner of tyranny's coming into being, my friend?
δῆλον. ἆρʼ οὖν τρόπον τινὰ τὸν αὐτὸν ἔκ τε ὀλιγαρχίας δημοκρατία γίγνεται καὶ ἐκ δημοκρατίας τυραννίς; πῶς; ὃ προύθεντο, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἀγαθόν, καὶ διʼ ὃ ἡ ὀλιγαρχία καθίστατο—τοῦτο δʼ ἦν πλοῦτος· ἦ γάρ; — ναί. ἡ πλούτου τοίνυν ἀπληστία καὶ ἡ τῶν ἄλλων ἀμέλεια διὰ χρηματισμὸν αὐτὴν ἀπώλλυ. ἀληθῆ, ἔφη.
For that it changes from democracy is nearly clear." "Clear." "Is it then in some such way that from oligarchy democracy comes into being, and from democracy tyranny?" "How?" "The good which they proposed," I said, "and because of which oligarchy was established—and this was wealth, was it not?"— "Yes." "Then the insatiability for wealth, and the neglect of other things for the sake of money-making, destroyed oligarchy." "True," he said.
ἆρʼ οὖν καὶ ὃ δημοκρατία ὁρίζεται ἀγαθόν, ἡ τούτου ἀπληστία καὶ ταύτην καταλύει; λέγεις δʼ αὐτὴν τί ὁρίζεσθαι; τὴν ἐλευθερίαν, εἶπον.
"Is it then also that which democracy defines as good, the insatiability for this which also dissolves democracy?" "What do you say it defines as good?" "Freedom," I said.
τοῦτο γάρ που ἐν δημοκρατουμένῃ πόλει ἀκούσαις ἂν ὡς ἔχει τε κάλλιστον καὶ διὰ ταῦτα ἐν μόνῃ ταύτῃ ἄξιον οἰκεῖν ὅστις φύσει ἐλεύθερος. λέγεται γὰρ δή, ἔφη, καὶ πολὺ τοῦτο τὸ ῥῆμα.
"For in a democratically governed city, you would hear that this is what it has that is most beautiful, and that for this reason, in this city alone is it worth living for anyone who is by nature free." "Indeed, that saying is spoken very much," he said.
ἆρʼ οὖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὅπερ ᾖα νυνδὴ ἐρῶν, ἡ τοῦ τοιούτου ἀπληστία καὶ ἡ τῶν ἄλλων ἀμέλεια καὶ ταύτην τὴν πολιτείαν μεθίστησίν τε καὶ παρασκευάζει τυραννίδος δεηθῆναι; πῶς; ἔφη.
"Is it then," I said, "as I was just about to say, that the insatiability for such a thing and the neglect of other things changes this constitution too, and prepares it to stand in need of tyranny?" "How?" he said.
ὅταν οἶμαι δημοκρατουμένη πόλις ἐλευθερίας διψήσασα κακῶν οἰνοχόων προστατούντων τύχῃ, καὶ πορρωτέρω τοῦ δέοντος ἀκράτου αὐτῆς μεθυσθῇ, τοὺς ἄρχοντας δή, ἂν μὴ πάνυ πρᾷοι ὦσι καὶ πολλὴν παρέχωσι τὴν ἐλευθερίαν, κολάζει αἰτιωμένη ὡς μιαρούς τε καὶ ὀλιγαρχικούς. δρῶσιν γάρ, ἔφη, τοῦτο.
"When, I suppose, a democratically governed city, thirsting for freedom, happens to get bad cupbearers as leaders, and gets drunk on it, unmixed, deeper than is proper, then, unless its rulers are very gentle and provide plenty of freedom, it punishes them, accusing them of being filthy oligarchs." "Yes, they do that," he said.
τοὺς δέ γε, εἶπον, τῶν ἀρχόντων κατηκόους προπηλακίζει ὡς ἐθελοδούλους τε καὶ οὐδὲν ὄντας, τοὺς δὲ ἄρχοντας μὲν ἀρχομένοις, ἀρχομένους δὲ ἄρχουσιν ὁμοίους ἰδίᾳ τε καὶ δημοσίᾳ ἐπαινεῖ τε καὶ τιμᾷ. ἆρʼ οὐκ ἀνάγκη ἐν τοιαύτῃ πόλει ἐπὶ πᾶν τὸ τῆς ἐλευθερίας ἰέναι; πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
"And those," I said, "who are obedient to the rulers, it insults as willing slaves and nobodies, but the rulers who are like the ruled, and the ruled who are like the rulers, it praises and honors both privately and publicly.
καὶ καταδύεσθαί γε, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὦ φίλε, εἴς τε τὰς ἰδίας οἰκίας καὶ τελευτᾶν μέχρι τῶν θηρίων τὴν ἀναρχίαν ἐμφυομένην. πῶς, ἦ δʼ ὅς, τὸ τοιοῦτον λέγομεν;
Is it not necessary in such a city for freedom to go to every extreme?" "How could it not be?" "And indeed, my friend," I said, "for anarchy to worm its way into private homes and end up infecting even the beasts." "In what way do we mean such a thing?" he said.
§8.563οἷον, ἔφην, πατέρα μὲν ἐθίζεσθαι παιδὶ ὅμοιον γίγνεσθαι καὶ φοβεῖσθαι τοὺς ὑεῖς, ὑὸν δὲ πατρί, καὶ μήτε αἰσχύνεσθαι μήτε δεδιέναι τοὺς γονέας, ἵνα δὴ ἐλεύθερος ᾖ· μέτοικον δὲ ἀστῷ καὶ ἀστὸν μετοίκῳ ἐξισοῦσθαι, καὶ ξένον ὡσαύτως. γίγνεται γὰρ οὕτως, ἔφη.
"For example," I said, "a father becomes accustomed to becoming like his child and fearing his sons, and a son like his father, neither respecting nor fearing his parents, so that he may indeed be free; and a resident alien becomes equal to a citizen, and a citizen to a resident alien, and a foreigner likewise." "Indeed, it happens so," he said.
ταῦτά τε, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, καὶ σμικρὰ τοιάδε ἄλλα γίγνεται· διδάσκαλός τε ἐν τῷ τοιούτῳ φοιτητὰς φοβεῖται καὶ θωπεύει, φοιτηταί τε διδασκάλων ὀλιγωροῦσιν, οὕτω δὲ καὶ παιδαγωγῶν· καὶ ὅλως οἱ μὲν νέοι πρεσβυτέροις ἀπεικάζονται καὶ διαμιλλῶνται καὶ ἐν λόγοις καὶ ἐν ἔργοις, οἱ δὲ γέροντες συγκαθιέντες τοῖς νέοις εὐτραπελίας τε καὶ χαριεντισμοῦ ἐμπίμπλανται, μιμούμενοι τοὺς νέους, ἵνα δὴ μὴ δοκῶσιν ἀηδεῖς εἶναι μηδὲ δεσποτικοί. πάνυ μὲν οὖν, ἔφη.
"These things," I said, "and other such small details happen: a teacher in such a school fears and flatters his students, and students think little of their teachers, and so too of their tutors; and on the whole, the young copy their elders and compete with them in words and deeds, while the old, condescending to the young, are filled with playfulness and pleasantry, imitating the young, so that they may not seem unpleasant or authoritarian." "Very much so," he said.
τὸ δέ γε, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἔσχατον, ὦ φίλε, τῆς ἐλευθερίας τοῦ πλήθους, ὅσον γίγνεται ἐν τῇ τοιαύτῃ πόλει, ὅταν δὴ οἱ ἐωνημένοι καὶ αἱ ἐωνημέναι μηδὲν ἧττον ἐλεύθεροι ὦσι τῶν πριαμένων.
"And the ultimate limit," I said, "my friend, of the freedom of the multitude, as much as occurs in such a city, is when the bought men and women are no less free than those who bought them.
ἐν γυναιξὶ δὲ πρὸς ἄνδρας καὶ ἀνδράσι πρὸς γυναῖκας ὅση ἡ ἰσονομία καὶ ἐλευθερία γίγνεται, ὀλίγου ἐπελαθόμεθʼ εἰπεῖν. οὐκοῦν κατʼ Αἰσχύλον, ἔφη,
ἐροῦμεν ὅτι νῦν ἦλθʼ ἐπὶ στόμα; πάνυ γε, εἶπον· καὶ ἔγωγε οὕτω λέγω·
And how much equality of rights and freedom there is for women in relation to men, and men in relation to women, we almost forgot to say." "Then," he said, "shall we say, according to Aeschylus, 'whatever has now come to our mouth'?" "By all means," I said, "and that is what I am saying.
τὸ μὲν γὰρ τῶν θηρίων τῶν ὑπὸ τοῖς ἀνθρώποις ὅσῳ ἐλευθερώτερά ἐστιν ἐνταῦθα ἢ ἐν ἄλλῃ, οὐκ ἄν τις πείθοιτο ἄπειρος.
For as to the beasts under human control, how much freer they are here than elsewhere, no one inexperienced would believe.
ἀτεχνῶς γὰρ αἵ τε κύνες κατὰ τὴν παροιμίαν οἷαίπερ αἱ δέσποιναι γίγνονταί τε δὴ καὶ ἵπποι καὶ ὄνοι, πάνυ ἐλευθέρως καὶ σεμνῶς εἰθισμένοι πορεύεσθαι, κατὰ τὰς ὁδοὺς ἐμβάλλοντες τῷ ἀεὶ ἀπαντῶντι, ἐὰν μὴ ἐξίστηται, καὶ τἆλλα πάντα οὕτω μεστὰ ἐλευθερίας γίγνεται. τὸ ἐμόν γʼ, ἔφη, ἐμοὶ λέγεις ὄναρ· αὐτὸς γὰρ εἰς ἀγρὸν πορευόμενος θαμὰ αὐτὸ πάσχω. τὸ δὲ δὴ κεφάλαιον, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, πάντων τούτων συνηθροισμένων, ἐννοεῖς ὡς ἁπαλὴν τὴν ψυχὴν τῶν πολιτῶν ποιεῖ, ὥστε κἂν ὁτιοῦν δουλείας τις προσφέρηται, ἀγανακτεῖν καὶ μὴ ἀνέχεσθαι;
For indeed, the dogs, according to the proverb, become just like their mistresses, and horses and donkeys, accustomed to march very freely and solemnly, bump into anyone they meet on the streets if they do not get out of the way; and all other things likewise become thus full of freedom." "You are telling me my own dream," he said, "for I often experience this very thing myself when walking to the countryside." "And the sum of all these things gathered together," I said, "do you realize how delicate it makes the soul of the citizens, so that if anyone brings even a little bit of slavery near them, they are indignant and cannot bear it?
τελευτῶντες γάρ που οἶσθʼ ὅτι οὐδὲ τῶν νόμων φροντίζουσιν γεγραμμένων ἢ ἀγράφων, ἵνα δὴ μηδαμῇ μηδεὶς αὐτοῖς ᾖ δεσπότης. καὶ μάλʼ, ἔφη, οἶδα. αὕτη μὲν τοίνυν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὦ φίλε, ἡ ἀρχὴ οὑτωσὶ καλὴ καὶ νεανική, ὅθεν τυραννὶς φύεται, ὡς ἐμοὶ δοκεῖ. νεανικὴ δῆτα, ἔφη· ἀλλὰ τί τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο;
For in the end, you know, they care nothing for the laws, written or unwritten, so that indeed they may have no master over them in any way." "And indeed," he said, "I know it well." "This, then," I said, "my friend, is that beginning, so beautiful and vigorous, from which tyranny grows, as it seems to me." "Vigorous indeed," he said, "but what is after this?"