§6.502βούλει οὖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, μὴ ἧττον φῶμεν αὐτοὺς ἀλλὰ παντάπασι πρᾴους γεγονέναι καὶ πεπεῖσθαι, ἵνα, εἰ μή τι, ἀλλὰ αἰσχυνθέντες ὁμολογήσωσιν; πάνυ μὲν οὖν, ἔφη.
"Do you wish, then," I said, "that we should say they are not merely less angry, but have become altogether gentle and have been persuaded, so that, if for no other reason, they may at least agree out of shame?" "Certainly," he said.
οὗτοι μὲν τοίνυν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, τοῦτο πεπεισμένοι ἔστων·
"Let these, then," I said, "be assumed to be persuaded of this.
τοῦδε δὲ πέρι τις ἀμφισβητήσει, ὡς οὐκ ἂν τύχοιεν γενόμενοι βασιλέων ἔκγονοι ἢ δυναστῶν τὰς φύσεις φιλόσοφοι; οὐδʼ ἂν εἷς, ἔφη.
But about the following, will anyone dispute that there could happen to be born sons of kings or dynasts who are philosophers by nature?" "Not a single one," he said.
τοιούτους δὲ γενομένους ὡς πολλὴ ἀνάγκη διαφθαρῆναι, ἔχει τις λέγειν;
"And when such are born, can anyone say that they must of necessity be corrupted?
ὡς μὲν γὰρ χαλεπὸν σωθῆναι, καὶ ἡμεῖς συγχωροῦμεν·
For that it is difficult to be saved, we too admit.
ὡς δὲ ἐν παντὶ τῷ χρόνῳ τῶν πάντων οὐδέποτε οὐδʼ ἂν εἷς σωθείη, ἔσθʼ ὅστις ἀμφισβητήσειε; καὶ πῶς; ἀλλὰ μήν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, εἷς ἱκανὸς γενόμενος, πόλιν ἔχων πειθομένην, πάντʼ ἐπιτελέσαι τὰ νῦν ἀπιστούμενα. ἱκανὸς γάρ, ἔφη.
But that in all course of time, of all of them, not even a single one could ever be saved, is there anyone who would dispute?" "And how could they?" "Yet surely," I said, "one who becomes sufficient, having a city that obeys him, can accomplish all those things that are now disbelieved." "For one is sufficient," he said.
ἄρχοντος γάρ που, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, τιθέντος τοὺς νόμους καὶ τὰ ἐπιτηδεύματα ἃ διεληλύθαμεν, οὐ δήπου ἀδύνατον ἐθέλειν ποιεῖν τοὺς πολίτας. οὐδʼ ὁπωστιοῦν. ἀλλὰ δή, ἅπερ ἡμῖν δοκεῖ, δόξαι καὶ ἄλλοις θαυμαστόν τι καὶ ἀδύνατον;
"For surely," I said, "if a ruler establishes the laws and practices we have described, it is certainly not impossible that the citizens should be willing to do them." "Not in any way whatsoever." "But then, is it some marvel and impossible that what seems good to us should also seem good to others?
οὐκ οἶμαι ἔγωγε, ἦ δʼ ὅς.
I, at least, do not think so," he said.
καὶ μὴν ὅτι γε βέλτιστα, εἴπερ δυνατά, ἱκανῶς ἐν τοῖς ἔμπροσθεν, ὡς ἐγᾦμαι, διήλθομεν. ἱκανῶς γάρ. νῦν δή, ὡς ἔοικεν, συμβαίνει ἡμῖν περὶ τῆς νομοθεσίας ἄριστα μὲν εἶναι ἃ λέγομεν, εἰ γένοιτο, χαλεπὰ δὲ γενέσθαι, οὐ μέντοι ἀδύνατά γε. συμβαίνει γάρ, ἔφη.
"And indeed, that these things are best, if they are possible, we have, I think, sufficiently gone through in what went before." "Yes, sufficiently." "So now, it seems, we have reached this conclusion regarding our legislation: that what we are saying is best, if it could come about, and that it is difficult to come about, but certainly not impossible." "That is the conclusion," he said.
οὐκοῦν ἐπειδὴ τοῦτο μόγις τέλος ἔσχεν, τὰ ἐπίλοιπα δὴ μετὰ τοῦτο λεκτέον, τίνα τρόπον ἡμῖν καὶ ἐκ τίνων μαθημάτων τε καὶ ἐπιτηδευμάτων οἱ σωτῆρες ἐνέσονται τῆς πολιτείας, καὶ κατὰ ποίας ἡλικίας ἕκαστοι ἑκάστων ἁπτόμενοι; λεκτέον μέντοι, ἔφη.
"Since this, then, has with difficulty reached an end, we must next speak of what remains: in what manner and from what studies and practices the saviors of our constitution will be in our city, and at what ages they will each lay hold of their respective duties?" "Indeed, we must," he said.
οὐδέν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, τὸ σοφόν μοι ἐγένετο τήν τε τῶν γυναικῶν τῆς κτήσεως δυσχέρειαν ἐν τῷ πρόσθεν παραλιπόντι καὶ παιδογονίαν καὶ τὴν τῶν ἀρχόντων κατάστασιν, εἰδότι ὡς ἐπίφθονός τε καὶ χαλεπὴ γίγνεσθαι ἡ παντελῶς ἀληθής· νῦν γὰρ οὐδὲν ἧττον ἦλθεν τὸ δεῖν αὐτὰ διελθεῖν.
"There was nothing clever," I said, "in my passing over before the difficulty concerning the possession of women and the procreation of children, and the appointment of the rulers, knowing that the completely true constitution is bound to arouse resentment and is difficult; for now, none the less, the necessity to go through them has come.
καὶ τὰ μὲν δὴ τῶν γυναικῶν τε καὶ παίδων πεπέρανται, τὸ δὲ τῶν ἀρχόντων ὥσπερ ἐξ ἀρχῆς μετελθεῖν δεῖ. §6.503ἐλέγομεν δʼ, εἰ μνημονεύεις, δεῖν αὐτοὺς φιλοπόλιδάς τε φαίνεσθαι, βασανιζομένους ἐν ἡδοναῖς τε καὶ λύπαις, καὶ τὸ δόγμα τοῦτο μήτʼ ἐν πόνοις μήτʼ ἐν φόβοις μήτʼ ἐν ἄλλῃ μηδεμιᾷ μεταβολῇ φαίνεσθαι ἐκβάλλοντας, ἢ τὸν ἀδυνατοῦντα ἀποκριτέον, τὸν δὲ πανταχοῦ ἀκήρατον ἐκβαίνοντα ὥσπερ χρυσὸν ἐν πυρὶ βασανιζόμενον, στατέον ἄρχοντα καὶ γέρα δοτέον καὶ ζῶντι καὶ τελευτήσαντι καὶ ἆθλα. τοιαῦτʼ ἄττα ἦν τὰ λεγόμενα παρεξιόντος καὶ παρακαλυπτομένου τοῦ λόγου, πεφοβημένου κινεῖν τὸ νῦν παρόν. ἀληθέστατα, ἔφη, λέγεις· μέμνημαι γάρ. ὄκνος γάρ, ἔφην, ὦ φίλε, ἐγώ, εἰπεῖν τὰ νῦν ἀποτετολμημένα·
And indeed, the matters concerning women and children have been finished, but those concerning the rulers we must pursue as if from the beginning." "We were saying, if you remember, that they must show themselves to be lovers of their city, tested in pleasures and pains, and making it clear that they do not cast out this conviction either in labors or in fears or in any other change; and that the one who is unable to do so must be rejected, but the one who emerges completely pure in every test, like gold tested in fire, must be appointed ruler and given honors and prizes both during his life and after his death." "Such were the kinds of things that were being said, while our discourse bypassed and veiled itself, being afraid of stirring up what is now before us." "You speak most truly," he said, "for I remember." "For I was hesitant, my friend," I said, "to say the things that have now been ventured.
νῦν δὲ τοῦτο μὲν τετολμήσθω εἰπεῖν, ὅτι τοὺς ἀκριβεστάτους φύλακας φιλοσόφους δεῖ καθιστάναι. εἰρήσθω γάρ, ἔφη.
But now let this dare to be said: that the most exact guardians must be established as philosophers." "Let it indeed be said," he said.
νόησον δὴ ὡς εἰκότως ὀλίγοι ἔσονταί σοι·
"Understand, then, how naturally they will be few for you.
ἣν γὰρ διήλθομεν φύσιν δεῖν ὑπάρχειν αὐτοῖς, εἰς ταὐτὸν συμφύεσθαι αὐτῆς τὰ μέρη ὀλιγάκις ἐθέλει, τὰ πολλὰ δὲ διεσπασμένη φύεται. πῶς, ἔφη, λέγεις;
For the nature which we described as necessary for them to have, its parts are rarely willing to grow together into one; for the most part, it grows split apart." "How do you mean?" he said.
εὐμαθεῖς καὶ μνήμονες καὶ ἀγχίνοι καὶ ὀξεῖς καὶ ὅσα ἄλλα τούτοις ἕπεται οἶσθʼ ὅτι οὐκ ἐθέλουσιν ἅμα φύεσθαι καὶ νεανικοί τε καὶ μεγαλοπρεπεῖς τὰς διανοίας οἷοι κοσμίως μετὰ ἡσυχίας καὶ βεβαιότητος ἐθέλειν ζῆν, ἀλλʼ οἱ τοιοῦτοι ὑπὸ ὀξύτητος φέρονται ὅπῃ ἂν τύχωσιν, καὶ τὸ βέβαιον ἅπαν αὐτῶν ἐξοίχεται. ἀληθῆ, ἔφη, λέγεις.
"Those who are quick to learn, have good memories, are sagacious, sharp, and possess all the other qualities that follow these, you know they are not willing to grow at the same time with those who are high-spirited and magnificent in their minds, such as to be willing to live orderly with quietness and stability; rather, such people are carried away by their sharpness wherever it happens, and all stability departs from them." "You speak truly," he said.
οὐκοῦν τὰ βέβαια αὖ ταῦτα ἤθη καὶ οὐκ εὐμετάβολα, οἷς ἄν τις μᾶλλον ὡς πιστοῖς χρήσαιτο, καὶ ἐν τῷ πολέμῳ πρὸς τοὺς φόβους δυσκίνητα ὄντα, πρὸς τὰς μαθήσεις αὖ ποιεῖ ταὐτόν· δυσκινήτως ἔχει καὶ δυσμαθῶς ὥσπερ ἀπονεναρκωμένα, καὶ ὕπνου τε καὶ χάσμης ἐμπίμπλανται, ὅταν τι δέῃ τοιοῦτον διαπονεῖν. ἔστι ταῦτα, ἔφη.
"On the other hand, those of stable character and not easily changed, whom one would rather employ as trustworthy, and who in war are slow to move in the face of fears, act in the same way toward studies: they are slow to move and slow to learn as if they were numbed, and they are filled with sleep and yawning whenever they have to labor at anything of this sort." "That is so," he said.
ἡμεῖς δέ γέ φαμεν ἀμφοτέρων δεῖν εὖ τε καὶ καλῶς μετέχειν, ἢ μήτε παιδείας τῆς ἀκριβεστάτης δεῖν αὐτῷ μεταδιδόναι μήτε τιμῆς μήτε ἀρχῆς. ὀρθῶς, ἦ δʼ ὅς.
"But we, at least, say that they must partake of both of these well and finely, or else they must not be given a share of the most exact education, nor of honor, nor of rule." "Right," he said.
οὐκοῦν σπάνιον αὐτὸ οἴει ἔσεσθαι; πῶς δʼ οὔ; βασανιστέον δὴ ἔν τε οἷς τότε ἐλέγομεν πόνοις τε καὶ φόβοις καὶ ἡδοναῖς, καὶ ἔτι δὴ ὃ τότε παρεῖμεν νῦν λέγομεν, ὅτι καὶ ἐν μαθήμασι πολλοῖς γυμνάζειν δεῖ, σκοποῦντας εἰ καὶ τὰ μέγιστα μαθήματα δυνατὴ ἔσται ἐνεγκεῖν εἴτε καὶ ἀποδειλιάσει, ὥσπερ οἱ ἐν τοῖς ἄλλοις ἀποδειλιῶντες.
"Do you think, then, that this will be rare?" "How could it not be?" "They must, then, be tested not only in those labors, fears, and pleasures we spoke of then, but also—what we omitted then and are saying now—we must train them in many studies, to see whether their soul will be able to bear the greatest studies, or whether it will turn out cowardly, as those who are cowardly in other trials do."