§6.498νῦν μέν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, οἱ καὶ ἁπτόμενοι μειράκια ὄντα ἄρτι ἐκ παίδων τὸ μεταξὺ οἰκονομίας καὶ χρηματισμοῦ πλησιάσαντες αὐτοῦ τῷ χαλεπωτάτῳ ἀπαλλάττονται, οἱ φιλοσοφώτατοι ποιούμενοι—λέγω δὲ χαλεπώτατον τὸ περὶ τοὺς λόγους —ἐν δὲ τῷ ἔπειτα, ἐὰν καὶ ἄλλων τοῦτο πραττόντων παρακαλούμενοι ἐθέλωσιν ἀκροαταὶ γίγνεσθαι, μεγάλα ἡγοῦνται, πάρεργον οἰόμενοι αὐτὸ δεῖν πράττειν·
"Now," I said, "those who even touch it do so as youths just emerging from childhood; in the interval before entering upon household management and money-making, they approach the most difficult part of it and then depart—those who are considered the most philosophical. And by the most difficult part, I mean that which concerns discussions. And in the time after that, if, when others are practicing this, they are invited and consent to become listeners, they think it a great thing, believing that they ought to practice it as a mere sideline.
πρὸς δὲ τὸ γῆρας ἐκτὸς δή τινων ὀλίγων ἀποσβέννυνται πολὺ μᾶλλον τοῦ Ἡρακλειτείου ἡλίου, ὅσον αὖθις οὐκ ἐξάπτονται. δεῖ δὲ πῶς; ἔφη.
And toward old age, with the exception indeed of some few, they are extinguished far more than the Heraclitean sun, inasmuch as they are not rekindled again." "But how must they do it?" he said.
πᾶν τοὐναντίον· μειράκια μὲν ὄντα καὶ παῖδας μειρακιώδη παιδείαν καὶ φιλοσοφίαν μεταχειρίζεσθαι, τῶν τε σωμάτων, ἐν ᾧ βλαστάνει τε καὶ ἀνδροῦται, εὖ μάλα ἐπιμελεῖσθαι, ὑπηρεσίαν φιλοσοφίᾳ κτωμένους· προϊούσης δὲ τῆς ἡλικίας, ἐν ᾗ ἡ ψυχὴ τελεοῦσθαι ἄρχεται, ἐπιτείνειν τὰ ἐκείνης γυμνάσια· ὅταν δὲ λήγῃ μὲν ἡ ῥώμη, πολιτικῶν δὲ καὶ στρατειῶν ἐκτὸς γίγνηται, τότε ἤδη ἀφέτους νέμεσθαι καὶ μηδὲν ἄλλο πράττειν, ὅτι μὴ πάρεργον, τοὺς μέλλοντας εὐδαιμόνως βιώσεσθαι καὶ τελευτήσαντας τῷ βίῳ τῷ βεβιωμένῳ τὴν ἐκεῖ μοῖραν ἐπιστήσειν πρέπουσαν. ὡς ἀληθῶς μοι δοκεῖς, ἔφη, λέγειν γε προθύμως, ὦ Σώκρατες·
"Entirely the opposite: while they are boys and youths, they should handle boyish education and philosophy, and take very good care of their bodies while they are growing and developing into manhood, acquiring them as a service to philosophy; and as age advances, when the soul begins to reach maturity, they should intensify her exercises; and when their strength fails and they are outside of political and military duties, then at last they should range at large and do nothing else except as a sideline—those, that is, who are to live happily, and having ended their life, to crown the life they have lived with a fitting destiny in the world beyond." "You really seem to me to speak with eagerness, Socrates," he said.
οἶμαι μέντοι τοὺς πολλοὺς τῶν ἀκουόντων προθυμότερον ἔτι ἀντιτείνειν οὐδʼ ὁπωστιοῦν πεισομένους, ἀπὸ Θρασυμάχου ἀρξαμένους. μὴ διάβαλλε, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἐμὲ καὶ Θρασύμαχον ἄρτι φίλους γεγονότας, οὐδὲ πρὸ τοῦ ἐχθροὺς ὄντας.
"I think, however, that most of your listeners will oppose you with still greater eagerness and will not be persuaded in any way at all, starting with Thrasymachus." "Do not slander Thrasymachus and me," I said, "who have just now become friends, though we were not enemies before either.
πείρας γὰρ οὐδὲν ἀνήσομεν, ἕως ἂν ἢ πείσωμεν καὶ τοῦτον καὶ τοὺς ἄλλους, ἢ προὔργου τι ποιήσωμεν εἰς ἐκεῖνον τὸν βίον, ὅταν αὖθις γενόμενοι τοῖς τοιούτοις ἐντύχωσι λόγοις. εἰς μικρόν γʼ, ἔφη, χρόνον εἴρηκας.
For we shall slacken no effort until we either persuade both him and the others, or do something useful for that future life, when, born again, they encounter such discussions." "You speak of a short time indeed," he said.
εἰς οὐδὲν μὲν οὖν, ἔφην, ὥς γε πρὸς τὸν ἅπαντα.
"Rather, it is as nothing," I said, "compared to all of time.
τὸ μέντοι μὴ πείθεσθαι τοῖς λεγομένοις τοὺς πολλοὺς θαῦμα οὐδέν· οὐ γὰρ πώποτε εἶδον γενόμενον τὸ νῦν λεγόμενον, ἀλλὰ πολὺ μᾶλλον τοιαῦτʼ ἄττα ῥήματα ἐξεπίτηδες ἀλλήλοις ὡμοιωμένα, ἀλλʼ οὐκ ἀπὸ τοῦ αὐτομάτου ὥσπερ νῦν συμπεσόντα.
Still, that the multitude is not persuaded by what we say is no wonder; for they have never yet seen what is now being described actually happen, but rather only phrases of this sort purposefully matched to one another, instead of falling together by chance as they do now.
§6.499ἄνδρα δὲ ἀρετῇ παρισωμένον καὶ ὡμοιωμένον μέχρι τοῦ δυνατοῦ τελέως ἔργῳ τε καὶ λόγῳ, δυναστεύοντα ἐν πόλει ἑτέρᾳ τοιαύτῃ, οὐ πώποτε ἑωράκασιν, οὔτε ἕνα οὔτε πλείους.
And a man who has been made equal to and like virtue, as far as possible, completely in deed and in word, ruling in another such city—they have never yet seen, neither one nor many.
ἢ οἴει; οὐδαμῶς γε. οὐδέ γε αὖ λόγων, ὦ μακάριε, καλῶν τε καὶ ἐλευθέρων ἱκανῶς ἐπήκοοι γεγόνασιν, οἵων ζητεῖν μὲν τὸ ἀληθὲς συντεταμένως ἐκ παντὸς τρόπου τοῦ γνῶναι χάριν, τὰ δὲ κομψά τε καὶ ἐριστικὰ καὶ μηδαμόσε ἄλλοσε τείνοντα ἢ πρὸς δόξαν καὶ ἔριν καὶ ἐν δίκαις καὶ ἐν ἰδίαις συνουσίαις πόρρωθεν ἀσπαζομένων. οὐδὲ τούτων, ἔφη.
Or do you think they have?" "By no means." "Nor again, my blessed friend, have they been sufficient listeners to beautiful and free discussions, such as seek the truth intensely in every way for the sake of knowing, while greeting from afar those subtle and eristic arguments that tend nowhere else than toward reputation and strife, both in law courts and in private associations." "Not those either," he said.
τούτων τοι χάριν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, καὶ ταῦτα προορώμενοι ἡμεῖς τότε καὶ δεδιότες ὅμως ἐλέγομεν, ὑπὸ τἀληθοῦς ἠναγκασμένοι, ὅτι οὔτε πόλις οὔτε πολιτεία οὐδέ γʼ ἀνὴρ ὁμοίως μή ποτε γένηται τέλεος, πρὶν ἂν τοῖς φιλοσόφοις τούτοις τοῖς ὀλίγοις καὶ οὐ πονηροῖς, ἀχρήστοις δὲ νῦν κεκλημένοις, ἀνάγκη τις ἐκ τύχης περιβάλῃ, εἴτε βούλονται εἴτε μή, πόλεως ἐπιμεληθῆναι, καὶ τῇ πόλει κατηκόῳ γενέσθαι, ἢ τῶν νῦν ἐν δυναστείαις ἢ βασιλείαις ὄντων ὑέσιν ἢ αὐτοῖς ἔκ τινος θείας ἐπιπνοίας ἀληθινῆς φιλοσοφίας ἀληθινὸς ἔρως ἐμπέσῃ.
"It was indeed for the sake of these things," I said, "and foreseeing them, that we then, despite our fears, spoke, compelled by the truth: that neither city nor constitution, nor likewise any man, can ever become perfect until either some necessity from fortune constrains these few philosophers who are not wicked but are now called useless, whether they wish it or not, to take charge of the city, and the city becomes obedient to them, or until a true love of true philosophy falls, by some divine inspiration, either upon the sons of those who are now in positions of power and sovereignty, or upon those rulers themselves.
τούτων δὲ πότερα γενέσθαι ἢ ἀμφότερα ὡς ἄρα ἐστὶν ἀδύνατον, ἐγὼ μὲν οὐδένα φημὶ ἔχειν λόγον.
And that either of these things, or both, is impossible, I say there is no reason to assert.
οὕτω γὰρ ἂν ἡμεῖς δικαίως καταγελῴμεθα, ὡς ἄλλως εὐχαῖς ὅμοια λέγοντες.
For if they were, we would justly be laughed at as merely uttering things like wishful prayers.
ἢ οὐχ οὕτως; οὕτως. εἰ τοίνυν ἄκροις εἰς φιλοσοφίαν πόλεώς τις ἀνάγκη ἐπιμεληθῆναι ἢ γέγονεν ἐν τῷ ἀπείρῳ τῷ παρεληλυθότι χρόνῳ ἢ καὶ νῦν ἔστιν ἔν τινι βαρβαρικῷ τόπῳ, πόρρω που ἐκτὸς ὄντι τῆς ἡμετέρας ἐπόψεως, ἢ καὶ ἔπειτα γενήσεται, περὶ τούτου ἕτοιμοι τῷ λόγῳ διαμάχεσθαι, ὡς γέγονεν ἡ εἰρημένη πολιτεία καὶ ἔστιν καὶ γενήσεταί γε, ὅταν αὕτη ἡ Μοῦσα πόλεως ἐγκρατὴς γένηται.
Is it not so?" "It is so." "If, then, some necessity to take charge of a city has laid upon those who are supreme in philosophy, either in the infinite past time, or exists even now in some barbarian place far outside our view, or will occur hereafter, we are ready to battle in argument for this: that the constitution described has existed, does exist, and will exist, whenever this Muse becomes mistress of a city.
οὐ γὰρ ἀδύνατος γενέσθαι, οὐδʼ ἡμεῖς ἀδύνατα λέγομεν· χαλεπὰ δὲ καὶ παρʼ ἡμῶν ὁμολογεῖται. καὶ ἐμοί, ἔφη, οὕτω δοκεῖ.
For its coming into being is not impossible, nor are we speaking of impossible things; though that it is difficult is confessed by us as well." "So it seems to me too," he said.
τοῖς δὲ πολλοῖς, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὅτι οὐκ αὖ δοκεῖ, ἐρεῖς;
"But that the multitude, on the other hand, does not think so, will you say?" I said.
ἴσως, ἔφη.
"Perhaps," he said.
ὦ μακάριε, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, μὴ πάνυ οὕτω τῶν πολλῶν κατηγόρει.
"My blessed friend," I said, "do not accuse the multitude so severely.
ἀλλοίαν τοι δόξαν ἕξουσιν, ἐὰν αὐτοῖς μὴ φιλονικῶν ἀλλὰ παραμυθούμενος καὶ ἀπολυόμενος τὴν τῆς φιλομαθείας διαβολὴν ἐνδεικνύῃ οὓς λέγεις τοὺς φιλοσόφους, καὶ διορίζῃ ὥσπερ ἄρτι τήν τε φύσιν αὐτῶν καὶ τὴν ἐπιτήδευσιν, ἵνα μὴ ἡγῶνταί σε λέγειν οὓς αὐτοὶ οἴονται.
They will certainly hold a different opinion if, instead of being contentious with them, you comfort them and, clearing away the slander against the love of learning, show them whom you mean by philosophers, and define, as we did just now, both their nature and their pursuit, so that they will not think you are speaking of those whom they themselves suppose."