§6.496οὐ πάνυ, ἔφη, διαφέρει.
"There is no difference at all," he said.
ποῖʼ ἄττα οὖν εἰκὸς γεννᾶν τοὺς τοιούτους;
"What kind of offspring, then, is it likely that such people will produce?
οὐ νόθα καὶ φαῦλα; πολλὴ ἀνάγκη. τί δέ; τοὺς ἀναξίους παιδεύσεως, ὅταν αὐτῇ πλησιάζοντες ὁμιλῶσι μὴ κατʼ ἀξίαν, ποῖʼ ἄττα φῶμεν γεννᾶν διανοήματά τε καὶ δόξας;
Is it not bastard and worthless ones?" "There is great necessity." "And what about those who are unworthy of education, when they approach her and associate with her in an unworthy manner? What kind of thoughts and opinions shall we say they produce?
ἆρʼ οὐχ ὡς ἀληθῶς προσήκοντα ἀκοῦσαι σοφίσματα, καὶ οὐδὲν γνήσιον οὐδὲ φρονήσεως ἀληθινῆς ἐχόμενον; παντελῶς μὲν οὖν, ἔφη.
Are they not things that truly deserve to be called sophisms, containing nothing genuine or akin to true intelligence?" "Completely so," he said.
πάνσμικρον δή τι, ἔφην ἐγώ, ὦ Ἀδείμαντε, λείπεται τῶν κατʼ ἀξίαν ὁμιλούντων φιλοσοφίᾳ, ἤ που ὑπὸ φυγῆς καταληφθὲν γενναῖον καὶ εὖ τεθραμμένον ἦθος, ἀπορίᾳ τῶν διαφθερούντων κατὰ φύσιν μεῖναν ἐπʼ αὐτῇ, ἢ ἐν σμικρᾷ πόλει ὅταν μεγάλη ψυχὴ φυῇ καὶ ἀτιμάσασα τὰ τῆς πόλεως ὑπερίδῃ· βραχὺ δέ πού τι καὶ ἀπʼ ἄλλης τέχνης δικαίως ἀτιμάσαν εὐφυὲς ἐπʼ αὐτὴν ἂν ἔλθοι.
"Then, Adeimantus," I said, "there remains only a very small number of those who associate with philosophy worthily: perhaps a noble and well-reared character, captured by exile, who, for lack of corrupting influences, has remained with her according to his nature; or when a great soul is born in a small city and, holding the affairs of the city in contempt, overlooks them; and perhaps also some small group of naturally gifted individuals, having justly held some other craft in contempt, might come to her.
εἴη δʼ ἂν καὶ ὁ τοῦ ἡμετέρου ἑταίρου Θεάγους χαλινὸς οἷος κατασχεῖν· καὶ γὰρ Θεάγει τὰ μὲν ἄλλα πάντα παρεσκεύασται πρὸς τὸ ἐκπεσεῖν φιλοσοφίας, ἡ δὲ τοῦ σώματος νοσοτροφία ἀπείργουσα αὐτὸν τῶν πολιτικῶν κατέχει.
And the bridle of our companion Theages might also be of a kind to restrain him; for in the case of Theages, all other things indeed were prepared for his falling away from philosophy, but his bodily ill health, keeping him away from politics, restrains him.
τὸ δʼ ἡμέτερον οὐκ ἄξιον λέγειν, τὸ δαιμόνιον σημεῖον· ἢ γάρ πού τινι ἄλλῳ ἢ οὐδενὶ τῶν ἔμπροσθεν γέγονεν.
And my own case, the spiritual sign, is not worth mentioning; for it has happened to perhaps some one other person or to no one of those before.
καὶ τούτων δὴ τῶν ὀλίγων οἱ γενόμενοι καὶ γευσάμενοι ὡς ἡδὺ καὶ μακάριον τὸ κτῆμα, καὶ τῶν πολλῶν αὖ ἱκανῶς ἰδόντες τὴν μανίαν, καὶ ὅτι οὐδεὶς οὐδὲν ὑγιὲς ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν περὶ τὰ τῶν πόλεων πράττει οὐδʼ ἔστι σύμμαχος μεθʼ ὅτου τις ἰὼν ἐπὶ τὴν τῷ δικαίῳ βοήθειαν σῴζοιτʼ ἄν, ἀλλʼ ὥσπερ εἰς θηρία ἄνθρωπος ἐμπεσών, οὔτε συναδικεῖν ἐθέλων οὔτε ἱκανὸς ὢν εἷς πᾶσιν ἀγρίοις ἀντέχειν, πρίν τι τὴν πόλιν ἢ φίλους ὀνῆσαι προαπολόμενος ἀνωφελὴς αὑτῷ τε καὶ τοῖς ἄλλοις ἂν γένοιτο—ταῦτα πάντα λογισμῷ λαβών, ἡσυχίαν ἔχων καὶ τὰ αὑτοῦ πράττων, οἷον ἐν χειμῶνι κονιορτοῦ καὶ ζάλης ὑπὸ πνεύματος φερομένου ὑπὸ τειχίον ἀποστάς, ὁρῶν τοὺς ἄλλους καταπιμπλαμένους ἀνομίας, ἀγαπᾷ εἴ πῃ αὐτὸς καθαρὸς ἀδικίας τε καὶ ἀνοσίων ἔργων τόν τε ἐνθάδε βίον βιώσεται καὶ τὴν ἀπαλλαγὴν αὐτοῦ μετὰ καλῆς ἐλπίδος ἵλεώς τε καὶ εὐμενὴς ἀπαλλάξεται. §6.497ἀλλά τοι, ἦ δʼ ὅς, οὐ τὰ ἐλάχιστα ἂν διαπραξάμενος ἀπαλλάττοιτο. οὐδέ γε, εἶπον, τὰ μέγιστα, μὴ τυχὼν πολιτείας προσηκούσης· ἐν γὰρ προσηκούσῃ αὐτός τε μᾶλλον αὐξήσεται καὶ μετὰ τῶν ἰδίων τὰ κοινὰ σώσει.
Now, those who have become part of these few and have tasted how sweet and blessed a possession it is, and who moreover have sufficiently seen the madness of the multitude, and that no one does anything healthy, so to speak, regarding the affairs of cities, and that there is no ally with whom one might go to the aid of justice and be saved, but just like a man who has fallen among wild beasts, neither wishing to join in doing injustice nor being able as one to hold out against all the wild ones, but before benefiting either the city or his friends, would perish beforehand and become useless both to himself and to others—having taken all these things into consideration, keeping quiet and doing his own minding, like a man who, during a storm of dust and sleet driven by the wind, stands aside under a little wall, seeing others filled with lawlessness, is content if somehow he himself can live his life here clean of injustice and unholy deeds, and make his departure from it with beautiful hope, gracious and benevolent." "And yet," he said, "he would depart having accomplished not the least of things." "Nor yet the greatest," I said, "if he does not happen upon a fitting constitution; for in a fitting one he will both grow more himself and save the public affairs along with his own.
τὸ μὲν οὖν τῆς φιλοσοφίας ὧν ἕνεκα διαβολὴν εἴληφεν καὶ ὅτι οὐ δικαίως, ἐμοὶ μὲν δοκεῖ μετρίως εἰρῆσθαι, εἰ μὴ ἔτʼ ἄλλο λέγεις τι σύ. ἀλλʼ οὐδέν, ἦ δʼ ὅς, ἔτι λέγω περὶ τούτου·
So then, as to why philosophy has received slander and that it is not justly, it seems to me to have been moderately stated, unless you have something else to say." "No, nothing more," he said, "on this subject.
ἀλλὰ τὴν προσήκουσαν αὐτῇ τίνα τῶν νῦν λέγεις πολιτειῶν; οὐδʼ ἡντινοῦν, εἶπον, ἀλλὰ τοῦτο καὶ ἐπαιτιῶμαι, μηδεμίαν ἀξίαν εἶναι τῶν νῦν κατάστασιν πόλεως φιλοσόφου φύσεως·
But which of the current constitutions do you say is fitting for her?" "Not even one," I said, "but this is indeed my complaint, that none of the current setups of cities is worthy of a philosophical nature.
διὸ καὶ στρέφεσθαί τε καὶ ἀλλοιοῦσθαι αὐτήν, ὥσπερ ξενικὸν σπέρμα ἐν γῇ ἄλλῃ σπειρόμενον ἐξίτηλον εἰς τὸ ἐπιχώριον φιλεῖ κρατούμενον ἰέναι, οὕτω καὶ τοῦτο τὸ γένος νῦν μὲν οὐκ ἴσχειν τὴν αὑτοῦ δύναμιν, ἀλλʼ εἰς ἀλλότριον ἦθος ἐκπίπτειν·
For this reason indeed it is twisted and altered, just as an exotic seed sown in another soil is accustomed to be overcome and fade away into the native stock; so also this kind now does not hold its own power, but falls away into an alien character.
εἰ δὲ λήψεται τὴν ἀρίστην πολιτείαν, ὥσπερ καὶ αὐτὸ ἄριστόν ἐστιν, τότε δηλώσει ὅτι τοῦτο μὲν τῷ ὄντι θεῖον ἦν, τὰ δὲ ἄλλα ἀνθρώπινα, τά τε τῶν φύσεων καὶ τῶν ἐπιτηδευμάτων.
But if it should obtain the best constitution, just as it itself is best, then it will show that this was indeed divine, whereas the others, both of natures and of pursuits, were human.
δῆλος δὴ οὖν εἶ ὅτι μετὰ τοῦτο ἐρήσῃ τίς αὕτη ἡ πολιτεία. οὐκ ἔγνως, ἔφη· οὐ γὰρ τοῦτο ἔμελλον, ἀλλʼ εἰ αὑτὴ ἣν ἡμεῖς διεληλύθαμεν οἰκίζοντες τὴν πόλιν ἢ ἄλλη. τὰ μὲν ἄλλα, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, αὕτη·
So then you are clearly going to ask after this, what this constitution is." "You didn't guess wrong," he said; "for I was not going to ask that, but whether it is this very one we have gone through in founding the city, or another." "In other respects," I said, "it is this very one.
τοῦτο δὲ αὐτὸ ἐρρήθη μὲν καὶ τότε, ὅτι δεήσοι τι ἀεὶ ἐνεῖναι ἐν τῇ πόλει λόγον ἔχον τῆς πολιτείας τὸν αὐτὸν ὅνπερ καὶ σὺ ὁ νομοθέτης ἔχων τοὺς νόμους ἐτίθεις. ἐρρήθη γάρ, ἔφη.
But this very point was indeed stated even then: that there must always be present in the city something possessing the same account of the constitution as you, the lawgiver, possessed when you laid down the laws." "For it was indeed stated," he said.
ἀλλʼ οὐχ ἱκανῶς, εἶπον, ἐδηλώθη, φόβῳ ὧν ὑμεῖς ἀντιλαμβανόμενοι δεδηλώκατε μακρὰν καὶ χαλεπὴν αὐτοῦ τὴν ἀπόδειξιν· ἐπεὶ καὶ τὸ λοιπὸν οὐ πάντων ῥᾷστον διελθεῖν. τὸ ποῖον; τίνα τρόπον μεταχειριζομένη πόλις φιλοσοφίαν οὐ διολεῖται.
"But it was not sufficiently made clear," I said, "for fear of those points on which you, by laying hold of them, have shown that the demonstration of it is long and difficult; since indeed what remains is by no means the easiest to go through." "What kind of thing?" "In what way a city can handle philosophy without being destroyed.
τὰ γὰρ δὴ μεγάλα πάντα ἐπισφαλῆ, καὶ τὸ λεγόμενον τὰ καλὰ τῷ ὄντι χαλεπά. ἀλλʼ ὅμως, ἔφη, λαβέτω τέλος ἡ ἀπόδειξις τούτου φανεροῦ γενομένου. οὐ τὸ μὴ βούλεσθαι, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἀλλʼ εἴπερ, τὸ μὴ δύνασθαι διακωλύσει· παρὼν δὲ τήν γʼ ἐμὴν προθυμίαν εἴσῃ.
For indeed, all great things are precarious, and, as the saying goes, 'beautiful things are indeed difficult.' "But nevertheless," he said, "let the demonstration reach its end, this having become clear." "Not the lack of will," I said, "but if anything, the lack of ability will hinder us; and being present, you will know at least my eagerness.
σκόπει δὲ καὶ νῦν ὡς προθύμως καὶ παρακινδυνευτικῶς μέλλω λέγειν, ὅτι τοὐναντίον ἢ νῦν δεῖ τοῦ ἐπιτηδεύματος τούτου πόλιν ἅπτεσθαι. πῶς;
And observe even now how eagerly and hazardously I am going to say that a city must touch this pursuit in a way opposite to how it does now." "How?"