§4.430τοιοῦτον τοίνυν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὑπόλαβε κατὰ δύναμιν ἐργάζεσθαι καὶ ἡμᾶς, ὅτε ἐξελεγόμεθα τοὺς στρατιώτας καὶ ἐπαιδεύομεν μουσικῇ καὶ γυμναστικῇ·
"Understand then," I said, "that we too, as far as possible, were doing something of this sort when we selected the soldiers and educated them in music and gymnastics.
μηδὲν οἴου ἄλλο μηχανᾶσθαι ἢ ὅπως ἡμῖν ὅτι κάλλιστα τοὺς νόμους πεισθέντες δέξοιντο ὥσπερ βαφήν, ἵνα δευσοποιὸς αὐτῶν ἡ δόξα γίγνοιτο καὶ περὶ δεινῶν καὶ περὶ τῶν ἄλλων διὰ τὸ τήν τε φύσιν καὶ τὴν τροφὴν ἐπιτηδείαν ἐσχηκέναι, καὶ μὴ αὐτῶν ἐκπλύναι τὴν βαφὴν τὰ ῥύμματα ταῦτα, δεινὰ ὄντα ἐκκλύζειν, ἥ τε ἡδονή, παντὸς χαλεστραίου δεινοτέρα οὖσα τοῦτο δρᾶν καὶ κονίας, λύπη τε καὶ φόβος καὶ ἐπιθυμία, παντὸς ἄλλου ῥύμματος.
Believe that we were planning nothing else than that they, being persuaded, should receive our laws as beautifully as possible, just like a dye, so that their belief might become fast-dyed both concerning fearful things and concerning other things because they had possessed a suitable nature and nurture, and that these detergents, though they are powerful at washing out, might not wash out their dye: namely pleasure, which is more powerful at doing this than any chalestraion and potash, and pain, fear, and desire, which are more powerful than any other detergent.
τὴν δὴ τοιαύτην δύναμιν καὶ σωτηρίαν διὰ παντὸς δόξης ὀρθῆς τε καὶ νομίμου δεινῶν τε πέρι καὶ μὴ ἀνδρείαν ἔγωγε καλῶ καὶ τίθεμαι, εἰ μή τι σὺ ἄλλο λέγεις. ἀλλʼ οὐδέν, ἦ δʼ ὅς, λέγω· δοκεῖς γάρ μοι τὴν ὀρθὴν δόξαν περὶ τῶν αὐτῶν τούτων ἄνευ παιδείας γεγονυῖαν, τήν τε θηριώδη καὶ ἀνδραποδώδη, οὔτε πάνυ νόμιμον ἡγεῖσθαι, ἄλλο τέ τι ἢ ἀνδρείαν καλεῖν.
Therefore, this kind of power and preservation through everything of the correct and lawful belief concerning fearful things and not, I call and define as courage, unless you say something else." "No," he said, "I say nothing else; for you seem to me to consider that the correct belief concerning these same things that has arisen without education—the beast-like and slave-like sort—is not entirely lawful, and to call it something other than courage." "Most truly spoken," I said.
ἀληθέστατα, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, λέγεις. ἀποδέχομαι τοίνυν τοῦτο ἀνδρείαν εἶναι. καὶ γὰρ ἀποδέχου, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, πολιτικήν γε, καὶ ὀρθῶς ἀποδέξῃ· αὖθις δὲ περὶ αὐτοῦ, ἐὰν βούλῃ, ἔτι κάλλιον δίιμεν.
"Accept this, then, as being courage." "Indeed, I do accept it," I said, "as civic courage, at least, and you will accept it correctly; and we shall go through it again still more beautifully later, if you wish.
νῦν γὰρ οὐ τοῦτο ἐζητοῦμεν, ἀλλὰ δικαιοσύνην· πρὸς οὖν τὴν ἐκείνου ζήτησιν, ὡς ἐγᾦμαι, ἱκανῶς ἔχει. ἀλλὰ καλῶς, ἔφη, λέγεις. δύο μήν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἔτι λοιπὰ ἃ δεῖ κατιδεῖν ἐν τῇ πόλει, ἥ τε σωφροσύνη καὶ οὗ δὴ ἕνεκα πάντα ζητοῦμεν, δικαιοσύνη. πάνυ μὲν οὖν. πῶς οὖν ἂν τὴν δικαιοσύνην εὕροιμεν, ἵνα μηκέτι πραγματευώμεθα περὶ σωφροσύνης; ἐγὼ μὲν τοίνυν, ἔφη, οὔτε οἶδα οὔτʼ ἂν βουλοίμην αὐτὸ πρότερον φανῆναι, εἴπερ μηκέτι ἐπισκεψόμεθα σωφροσύνην· ἀλλʼ εἰ ἔμοιγε βούλει χαρίζεσθαι, σκόπει πρότερον τοῦτο ἐκείνου. ἀλλὰ μέντοι, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, βούλομαί γε, εἰ μὴ ἀδικῶ. σκόπει δή, ἔφη.
For now we were not seeking this, but justice; therefore, for the search of that, as I think, it is sufficient." "Indeed," he said, "you speak well." "Two, then," I said, "still remain that must be observed in the city: moderation, and that for the sake of which we are seeking everything, justice." "Certainly." "How then could we find justice, so that we might no longer trouble ourselves about moderation?" "For my part, then," he said, "I neither know nor would I wish it to appear first, if indeed we are no longer going to examine moderation; but if you are willing to gratify me, examine this before that." "But indeed," I said, "I am willing, unless I do wrong." "Examine then," he said.
σκεπτέον, εἶπον· καὶ ὥς γε ἐντεῦθεν ἰδεῖν, συμφωνίᾳ τινὶ καὶ ἁρμονίᾳ προσέοικεν μᾶλλον ἢ τὰ πρότερον. πῶς; κόσμος πού τις, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἡ σωφροσύνη ἐστὶν καὶ ἡδονῶν τινων καὶ ἐπιθυμιῶν ἐγκράτεια, ὥς φασι κρείττω δὴ αὑτοῦ ἀποφαίνοντες οὐκ οἶδʼ ὅντινα τρόπον, καὶ ἄλλα ἄττα τοιαῦτα ὥσπερ ἴχνη αὐτῆς λέγεται.
"We must examine it," I said; "and as seen from here, it resembles a certain consonance and harmony more than the former ones." "How so?" "Moderation," I said, "is surely a certain order and mastery of certain pleasures and desires, as they say, showing one to be 'master of oneself,' in I know not what way; and some other such things are said as if they were traces of it.
ἦ γάρ; πάντων μάλιστα, ἔφη.
Is it not so?" "Most of all," he said.
§4.431οὐκοῦν τὸ μὲν
"κρείττω αὑτοῦ"
γελοῖον;
"Is not then the phrase 'master of oneself' ridiculous?
ὁ γὰρ ἑαυτοῦ κρείττων καὶ ἥττων δήπου ἂν αὑτοῦ εἴη καὶ ὁ ἥττων κρείττων· ὁ αὐτὸς γὰρ ἐν ἅπασιν τούτοις προσαγορεύεται. τί δʼ οὔ; ἀλλʼ, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, φαίνεταί μοι βούλεσθαι λέγειν οὗτος ὁ λόγος ὥς τι ἐν αὐτῷ τῷ ἀνθρώπῳ περὶ τὴν ψυχὴν τὸ μὲν βέλτιον ἔνι, τὸ δὲ χεῖρον, καὶ ὅταν μὲν τὸ βέλτιον φύσει τοῦ χείρονος ἐγκρατὲς ᾖ, τοῦτο λέγειν τὸ
"κρείττω αὑτοῦ"
—ἐπαινεῖ γοῦν—ὅταν δὲ ὑπὸ τροφῆς κακῆς ἤ τινος ὁμιλίας κρατηθῇ ὑπὸ πλήθους τοῦ χείρονος σμικρότερον τὸ βέλτιον ὄν, τοῦτο δὲ ὡς ἐν ὀνείδει ψέγειν τε καὶ καλεῖν ἥττω ἑαυτοῦ καὶ ἀκόλαστον τὸν οὕτω διακείμενον. καὶ γὰρ ἔοικεν, ἔφη.
For the one who is master of himself would surely also be subject to himself, and the one who is subject would be master; for the same person is addressed in all these terms." "Of course." "But," I said, "it seems to me that this saying wishes to mean that in the human being himself, concerning the soul, there is a better part and a worse part, and when the naturally better part is in control of the worse, this is called being 'master of oneself'—at any rate, it praises it—but when, by bad nurture or some association, the better part, being smaller, is overcome by the multitude of the worse, this is blamed as a reproach, and the one so disposed is called subject to himself and licentious." "Indeed, it seems so," he said.
ἀπόβλεπε τοίνυν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, πρὸς τὴν νέαν ἡμῖν πόλιν, καὶ εὑρήσεις ἐν αὐτῇ τὸ ἕτερον τούτων ἐνόν· κρείττω γὰρ αὐτὴν αὑτῆς δικαίως φήσεις προσαγορεύεσθαι, εἴπερ οὗ τὸ ἄμεινον τοῦ χείρονος ἄρχει σῶφρον κλητέον καὶ κρεῖττον αὑτοῦ. ἀλλʼ ἀποβλέπω, ἔφη, καὶ ἀληθῆ λέγεις. καὶ μὴν καὶ τάς γε πολλὰς καὶ παντοδαπὰς ἐπιθυμίας καὶ ἡδονάς τε καὶ λύπας ἐν παισὶ μάλιστα ἄν τις εὕροι καὶ γυναιξὶ καὶ οἰκέταις καὶ τῶν ἐλευθέρων λεγομένων ἐν τοῖς πολλοῖς τε καὶ φαύλοις. πάνυ μὲν οὖν. τὰς δέ γε ἁπλᾶς τε καὶ μετρίας, αἳ δὴ μετὰ νοῦ τε καὶ δόξης ὀρθῆς λογισμῷ ἄγονται, ἐν ὀλίγοις τε ἐπιτεύξῃ καὶ τοῖς βέλτιστα μὲν φῦσιν, βέλτιστα δὲ παιδευθεῖσιν. ἀληθῆ, ἔφη.
"Look then," I said, "to our new city, and you will find one of these present in it; for you will say that it is justly addressed as master of itself, if indeed that in which the better rules the worse must be called moderate and master of itself." "Well, I am looking," he said, "and you speak the truth." "And indeed, one would find many and diverse desires and pleasures and pains especially in children, women, servants, and in the majority and the base of those called free." "Certainly." "But the simple and moderate ones, which are led by calculation along with intellect and correct belief, you will meet with in few, and those the best by nature and the best educated." "True," he said.
οὐκοῦν καὶ ταῦτα ὁρᾷς ἐνόντα σοι ἐν τῇ πόλει καὶ κρατουμένας αὐτόθι τὰς ἐπιθυμίας τὰς ἐν τοῖς πολλοῖς τε καὶ φαύλοις ὑπό τε τῶν ἐπιθυμιῶν καὶ τῆς φρονήσεως τῆς ἐν τοῖς ἐλάττοσί τε καὶ ἐπιεικεστέροις; ἔγωγʼ, ἔφη.
"Do you not see then that these too are present in your city, and that the desires in the many and base are controlled there by the desires and the wisdom in the fewer and more decent?" "I do," he said.
εἰ ἄρα δεῖ τινα πόλιν προσαγορεύειν κρείττω ἡδονῶν τε καὶ ἐπιθυμιῶν καὶ αὐτὴν αὑτῆς, καὶ ταύτην προσρητέον. παντάπασιν μὲν οὖν, ἔφη.
"If therefore any city must be addressed as master of pleasures, desires, and of itself, this one too must be so addressed." "By all means," he said.
ἆρʼ οὖν οὐ καὶ σώφρονα κατὰ πάντα ταῦτα; καὶ μάλα, ἔφη.
"Is it not then also moderate in all these respects?" "Very much so," he said.
καὶ μὴν εἴπερ αὖ ἐν ἄλλῃ πόλει ἡ αὐτὴ δόξα ἔνεστι τοῖς τε ἄρχουσι καὶ ἀρχομένοις περὶ τοῦ οὕστινας δεῖ ἄρχειν, καὶ ἐν ταύτῃ ἂν εἴη τοῦτο ἐνόν.
"And indeed, if in any other city there is the same belief in both the rulers and the ruled about who ought to rule, this would be present in this one too.
ἢ οὐ δοκεῖ; καὶ μάλα, ἔφη, σφόδρα.
Or does it not seem so?" "Very much so, indeed," he said.
ἐν ποτέροις οὖν φήσεις τῶν πολιτῶν τὸ σωφρονεῖν ἐνεῖναι ὅταν οὕτως ἔχωσιν;
"In which of the citizens then will you say that being moderate is present when they are so disposed?
ἐν τοῖς ἄρχουσιν ἢ ἐν τοῖς ἀρχομένοις; ἐν ἀμφοτέροις που, ἔφη.
In the rulers or in the ruled?" "In both, surely," he said.
ὁρᾷς οὖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὅτι ἐπιεικῶς ἐμαντευόμεθα ἄρτι ὡς ἁρμονίᾳ τινὶ ἡ σωφροσύνη ὡμοίωται; τί δή;
"Do you see then," I said, "that we were predicting reasonably just now that moderation is likened to a certain harmony?" "Why so?"