§3.402καὶ ὅτι αὖ τῶν παραλειπομένων καὶ μὴ καλῶς δημιουργηθέντων ἢ μὴ καλῶς φύντων ὀξύτατʼ ἂν αἰσθάνοιτο ὁ ἐκεῖ τραφεὶς ὡς ἔδει, καὶ ὀρθῶς δὴ δυσχεραίνων τὰ μὲν καλὰ ἐπαινοῖ καὶ χαίρων καὶ καταδεχόμενος εἰς τὴν ψυχὴν τρέφοιτʼ ἂν ἀπʼ αὐτῶν καὶ γίγνοιτο καλός τε κἀγαθός, τὰ δʼ αἰσχρὰ ψέγοι τʼ ἂν ὀρθῶς καὶ μισοῖ ἔτι νέος ὤν, πρὶν λόγον δυνατὸς εἶναι λαβεῖν, ἐλθόντος δὲ τοῦ λόγου ἀσπάζοιτʼ ἂν αὐτὸν γνωρίζων διʼ οἰκειότητα μάλιστα ὁ οὕτω τραφείς; ἐμοὶ γοῦν δοκεῖ, ἔφη, τῶν τοιούτων ἕνεκα ἐν μουσικῇ εἶναι ἡ τροφή. ὥσπερ ἄρα, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, γραμμάτων πέρι τότε ἱκανῶς εἴχομεν, ὅτε τὰ στοιχεῖα μὴ λανθάνοι ἡμᾶς ὀλίγα ὄντα ἐν ἅπασιν οἷς ἔστιν περιφερόμενα, καὶ οὔτʼ ἐν σμικρῷ οὔτʼ ἐν μεγάλῳ ἠτιμάζομεν αὐτά, ὡς οὐ δέοι αἰσθάνεσθαι, ἀλλὰ πανταχοῦ προυθυμούμεθα διαγιγνώσκειν, ὡς οὐ πρότερον ἐσόμενοι γραμματικοὶ πρὶν οὕτως ἔχοιμεν— ἀληθῆ. οὐκοῦν καὶ εἰκόνας γραμμάτων, εἴ που ἢ ἐν ὕδασιν ἢ ἐν κατόπτροις ἐμφαίνοιντο, οὐ πρότερον γνωσόμεθα, πρὶν ἂν αὐτὰ γνῶμεν, ἀλλʼ ἔστιν τῆς αὐτῆς τέχνης τε καὶ μελέτης; παντάπασι μὲν οὖν. ἆρʼ οὖν, ὃ λέγω, πρὸς θεῶν, οὕτως οὐδὲ μουσικοὶ πρότερον ἐσόμεθα, οὔτε αὐτοὶ οὔτε οὕς φαμεν ἡμῖν παιδευτέον εἶναι τοὺς φύλακας, πρὶν ἂν τὰ τῆς σωφροσύνης εἴδη καὶ ἀνδρείας καὶ ἐλευθεριότητος καὶ μεγαλοπρεπείας καὶ ὅσα τούτων ἀδελφὰ καὶ τὰ τούτων αὖ ἐναντία πανταχοῦ περιφερόμενα γνωρίζωμεν καὶ ἐνόντα ἐν οἷς ἔνεστιν αἰσθανώμεθα καὶ αὐτὰ καὶ εἰκόνας αὐτῶν, καὶ μήτε ἐν σμικροῖς μήτε ἐν μεγάλοις ἀτιμάζωμεν, ἀλλὰ τῆς αὐτῆς οἰώμεθα τέχνης εἶναι καὶ μελέτης;
"And that, furthermore, one who has been reared there as he ought would perceive most sharply things that are neglected and not finely crafted or not finely grown, and rightly feeling distaste, he would praise beautiful things, and welcoming them joyfully into his soul, he would be nourished by them and become noble and good, while he would rightly blame and hate ugly things even when he is still young, before he is able to grasp reason; and when reason comes, the one thus reared would welcome it, recognizing it most of all because of its familiarity?" "To me at least," he said, "it seems that rearing in music is for the sake of such things." "Just as, then," I said, "concerning letters, we were in a sufficient state at that time when the elements did not escape us, being few but scattered about in all the things in which they are, and we did not disregard them either in a small or in a large thing, as if we did not need to perceive them, but everywhere we were eager to distinguish them, thinking we would not be literate before we were in this state—" "True." "Therefore, also the images of letters, if they should appear anywhere either in waters or in mirrors, we shall not recognize them before we know the letters themselves, but is it a matter of the same art and study?" "By all means." "Is it then, by the gods, as I say, that we shall not be musical either, neither ourselves nor those guardians whom we say we must educate, before we recognize the forms of temperance, courage, liberality, magnificence, and all their sisters, and on the other hand their opposites, scattered about everywhere, and perceive them present in the things in which they are, both themselves and their images, and we do not disregard them either in small or in large things, but think they belong to the same art and study?" "There is great necessity," he said.
πολλὴ ἀνάγκη, ἔφη. οὐκοῦν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὅτου ἂν συμπίπτῃ ἔν τε τῇ ψυχῇ καλὰ ἤθη ἐνόντα καὶ ἐν τῷ εἴδει ὁμολογοῦντα ἐκείνοις καὶ συμφωνοῦντα, τοῦ αὐτοῦ μετέχοντα τύπου, τοῦτʼ ἂν εἴη κάλλιστον θέαμα τῷ δυναμένῳ θεᾶσθαι; πολύ γε. καὶ μὴν τό γε κάλλιστον ἐρασμιώτατον; πῶς δʼ οὔ; τῶν δὴ ὅτι μάλιστα τοιούτων ἀνθρώπων ὅ γε μουσικὸς ἐρῴη ἄν· εἰ δὲ ἀσύμφωνος εἴη, οὐκ ἂν ἐρῴη. οὐκ ἄν, εἴ γέ τι, ἔφη, κατὰ τὴν ψυχὴν ἐλλείποι· εἰ μέντοι τι κατὰ τὸ σῶμα, ὑπομείνειεν ἂν ὥστε ἐθέλειν ἀσπάζεσθαι. μανθάνω, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ· ὅτι ἔστιν σοι ἢ γέγονεν παιδικὰ τοιαῦτα, καὶ συγχωρῶ.
"Therefore," I said, "for whomever it happens that beautiful characters exist in the soul and agree and harmonize with them in the outward form, sharing in the same model, would this not be the most beautiful sight for one who is able to see?" "By far." "And indeed, is not the most beautiful also the most lovable?" "How could it not be?" "Then the musical person would love those who are such as much as possible; but if someone should be unharmonious, he would not love him." "He would not, if," he said, "something should be lacking in the soul; if, however, it should be in the body, he would endure it so as to be willing to welcome him." "I understand," I said; "that you have or have had such a beloved boy, and I agree.
ἀλλὰ τόδε μοι εἰπέ· σωφροσύνῃ καὶ ἡδονῇ ὑπερβαλλούσῃ ἔστι τις κοινωνία; καὶ πῶς; ἔφη, ἥ γε ἔκφρονα ποιεῖ οὐχ ἧττον ἢ λύπη; ἀλλὰ τῇ ἄλλῃ ἀρετῇ; §3.403οὐδαμῶς. τί δέ; ὕβρει τε καὶ ἀκολασίᾳ; πάντων μάλιστα. μείζω δέ τινα καὶ ὀξυτέραν ἔχεις εἰπεῖν ἡδονὴν τῆς περὶ τὰ ἀφροδίσια; οὐκ ἔχω, ἦ δʼ ὅς, οὐδέ γε μανικωτέραν. ὁ δὲ ὀρθὸς ἔρως πέφυκε κοσμίου τε καὶ καλοῦ σωφρόνως τε καὶ μουσικῶς ἐρᾶν; καὶ μάλα, ἦ δʼ ὅς.
But tell me this: is there any association between temperance and excessive pleasure?" "How could there be," he said, "since it makes one out of his mind no less than grief does?" "But with other virtue?" "In no way." "And what about insolence and licentiousness?" "Most of all." "Can you name any pleasure greater and sharper than that concerning sexual matters?" "I cannot," he said, "nor indeed any more manic." "But is it the nature of correct love to love what is orderly and beautiful temperately and musically?" "Very much so," he said.
οὐδὲν ἄρα προσοιστέον μανικὸν οὐδὲ συγγενὲς ἀκολασίας τῷ ὀρθῷ ἔρωτι; οὐ προσοιστέον. οὐ προσοιστέον ἄρα αὕτη ἡ ἡδονή, οὐδὲ κοινωνητέον αὐτῆς ἐραστῇ τε καὶ παιδικοῖς ὀρθῶς ἐρῶσί τε καὶ ἐρωμένοις; οὐ μέντοι μὰ Δίʼ, ἔφη, ὦ Σώκρατες, προσοιστέον. οὕτω δή, ὡς ἔοικε, νομοθετήσεις ἐν τῇ οἰκιζομένῃ πόλει φιλεῖν μὲν καὶ συνεῖναι καὶ ἅπτεσθαι ὥσπερ ὑέος παιδικῶν ἐραστήν, τῶν καλῶν χάριν, ἐὰν πείθῃ, τὰ δʼ ἄλλα οὕτως ὁμιλεῖν πρὸς ὅν τις σπουδάζοι, ὅπως μηδέποτε δόξει μακρότερα τούτων συγγίγνεσθαι· εἰ δὲ μή, ψόγον ἀμουσίας καὶ ἀπειροκαλίας ὑφέξοντα. οὕτως, ἔφη.
"Therefore, nothing manic nor akin to licentiousness must be brought near to correct love?" "It must not be brought near." "Then this pleasure must not be brought near, nor must a lover and his beloved who love and are loved correctly share in it?" "No indeed, by Zeus, Socrates," he said, "it must not be brought near." "Thus, then, as it seems, you will legislate in the city being founded that a lover may kiss, be with, and touch his beloved as if he were his son, for the sake of beautiful things, if he persuades him, but in other matters to associate with the one he is serious about in such a way that he will never seem to associate more closely than this; otherwise, he will undergo the blame of lack of music and of lack of taste." "Thus indeed," he said.
ἆρʼ οὖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, καὶ σοὶ φαίνεται τέλος ἡμῖν ἔχειν ὁ περὶ μουσικῆς λόγος;
"Does it then," I said, "seem to you also that our discourse concerning music has its end?
οἷ γοῦν δεῖ τελευτᾶν, τετελεύτηκεν· δεῖ δέ που τελευτᾶν τὰ μουσικὰ εἰς τὰ τοῦ καλοῦ ἐρωτικά. σύμφημι, ἦ δʼ ὅς.
At least where it ought to end, it has ended; for music must end in the love of the beautiful." "I agree," he said.
μετὰ δὴ μουσικὴν γυμναστικῇ θρεπτέοι οἱ νεανίαι. τί μήν; δεῖ μὲν δὴ καὶ ταύτῃ ἀκριβῶς τρέφεσθαι ἐκ παίδων διὰ βίου.
"After music, indeed, the young men must be reared in gymnastics." "Of course." "Indeed, they must also be reared in this accurately from childhood through life.
ἔχει δέ πως, ὡς ἐγᾦμαι, ὧδε· σκόπει δὲ καὶ σύ.
And it is, I think, somewhat like this—and do you also consider it.
ἐμοὶ μὲν γὰρ οὐ φαίνεται, ὃ ἂν χρηστὸν ᾖ σῶμα, τοῦτο τῇ αὑτοῦ ἀρετῇ ψυχὴν ἀγαθὴν ποιεῖν, ἀλλὰ τοὐναντίον ψυχὴ ἀγαθὴ τῇ αὑτῆς ἀρετῇ σῶμα παρέχειν ὡς οἷόν τε βέλτιστον·
For to me it does not appear that a body, when it is good, makes a good soul by its own virtue, but on the contrary, a good soul by its own virtue makes the body as best as possible.
σοὶ δὲ πῶς φαίνεται; καὶ ἐμοί, ἔφη, οὕτως. οὐκοῦν εἰ τὴν διάνοιαν ἱκανῶς θεραπεύσαντες παραδοῖμεν αὐτῇ τὰ περὶ τὸ σῶμα ἀκριβολογεῖσθαι, ἡμεῖς δὲ ὅσον τοὺς τύπους ὑφηγησαίμεθα, ἵνα μὴ μακρολογῶμεν, ὀρθῶς ἂν ποιοῖμεν; πάνυ μὲν οὖν. μέθης μὲν δὴ εἴπομεν ὅτι ἀφεκτέον αὐτοῖς· παντὶ γάρ που μᾶλλον ἐγχωρεῖ ἢ φύλακι μεθυσθέντι μὴ εἰδέναι ὅπου γῆς ἐστιν. γελοῖον γάρ, ἦ δʼ ὅς, τόν γε φύλακα φύλακος δεῖσθαι. τί δὲ δὴ σίτων πέρι;
How does it appear to you?" "To me also," he said, "thus." "Therefore, if having sufficiently cared for the mind we should hand over to it the detailed management of the body, and we ourselves should only guide them as to the outlines, so that we may not speak at length, would we be doing correctly?" "By all means." "Of drunkenness, indeed, we said that they must abstain from it; for it is surely allowable for anyone rather than a guardian when drunk not to know where on earth he is." "For it is ridiculous," he said, "for the guardian himself to need a guardian." "And what about foods?
ἀθληταὶ μὲν γὰρ οἱ ἄνδρες τοῦ μεγίστου ἀγῶνος.
For the men are athletes of the greatest contest.
ἢ οὐχί; ναί.
Or not?" "Yes."