§3.398ἄνδρα δή, ὡς ἔοικε, δυνάμενον ὑπὸ σοφίας παντοδαπὸν γίγνεσθαι καὶ μιμεῖσθαι πάντα χρήματα, εἰ ἡμῖν ἀφίκοιτο εἰς τὴν πόλιν αὐτός τε καὶ τὰ ποιήματα βουλόμενος ἐπιδείξασθαι, προσκυνοῖμεν ἂν αὐτὸν ὡς ἱερὸν καὶ θαυμαστὸν καὶ ἡδύν, εἴποιμεν δʼ ἂν ὅτι οὐκ ἔστιν τοιοῦτος ἀνὴρ ἐν τῇ πόλει παρʼ ἡμῖν οὔτε θέμις ἐγγενέσθαι, ἀποπέμποιμέν τε εἰς ἄλλην πόλιν μύρον κατὰ τῆς κεφαλῆς καταχέαντες καὶ ἐρίῳ στέψαντες, αὐτοὶ δʼ ἂν τῷ αὐστηροτέρῳ καὶ ἀηδεστέρῳ ποιητῇ χρῴμεθα καὶ μυθολόγῳ ὠφελίας ἕνεκα, ὃς ἡμῖν τὴν τοῦ ἐπιεικοῦς λέξιν μιμοῖτο καὶ τὰ λεγόμενα λέγοι ἐν ἐκείνοις τοῖς τύποις οἷς κατʼ ἀρχὰς ἐνομοθετησάμεθα, ὅτε τοὺς στρατιώτας ἐπεχειροῦμεν παιδεύειν. καὶ μάλʼ, ἔφη, οὕτως ἂν ποιοῖμεν, εἰ ἐφʼ ἡμῖν εἴη. νῦν δή, εἶπον ἐγώ, ὦ φίλε, κινδυνεύει ἡμῖν τῆς μουσικῆς τὸ περὶ λόγους τε καὶ μύθους παντελῶς διαπεπεράνθαι· ἅ τε γὰρ λεκτέον καὶ ὡς λεκτέον εἴρηται. καὶ αὐτῷ μοι δοκεῖ, ἔφη.
"Therefore, as it seems, if a man able by wisdom to become all kinds of things and to imitate all matters should arrive in our city, himself and his poems, wishing to make an exhibition of them, we would worship him as holy and wonderful and pleasant, but we would say that there is no such man in our city nor is it lawful for one to exist, and we would send him away to another city, pouring myrrh over his head and crowning him with wool; and we ourselves would make use of the more austere and less pleasant poet and storyteller for the sake of utility, who would imitate for us the speech of the decent man and say what is said in those types which we established by law at the beginning, when we were attempting to educate our soldiers." "And indeed," he said, "we would do so, if it were up to us." "Now indeed, my friend," I said, "the part of music concerning speeches and stories seems to us to have been completely finished; for both what must be said and how it must be said have been stated." "And so it seems to me too," he said.
οὐκοῦν μετὰ τοῦτο, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, τὸ περὶ ᾠδῆς τρόπου καὶ μελῶν λοιπόν; δῆλα δή. ἆρʼ οὖν οὐ πᾶς ἤδη ἂν εὕροι ἃ ἡμῖν λεκτέον περὶ αὐτῶν οἷα δεῖ εἶναι, εἴπερ μέλλομεν τοῖς προειρημένοις συμφωνήσειν; καὶ ὁ Γλαύκων ἐπιγελάσας, ἐγὼ τοίνυν, ἔφη, ὦ Σώκρατες, κινδυνεύω ἐκτὸς τῶν πάντων εἶναι· οὔκουν ἱκανῶς γε ἔχω ἐν τῷ παρόντι συμβαλέσθαι ποῖα ἄττα δεῖ ἡμᾶς λέγειν· ὑποπτεύω μέντοι. πάντως δήπου, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, πρῶτον μὲν τόδε ἱκανῶς ἔχεις λέγειν, ὅτι τὸ μέλος ἐκ τριῶν ἐστιν συγκείμενον, λόγου τε καὶ ἁρμονίας καὶ ῥυθμοῦ. ναί, ἔφη, τοῦτό γε. οὐκοῦν ὅσον γε αὐτοῦ λόγος ἐστίν, οὐδὲν δήπου διαφέρει τοῦ μὴ ᾀδομένου λόγου πρὸς τὸ ἐν τοῖς αὐτοῖς δεῖν τύποις λέγεσθαι οἷς ἄρτι προείπομεν καὶ ὡσαύτως;
"Is not then after this," I said, "the matter concerning the manner of song and melodies remaining?" "Clearly indeed." "Would not then everyone by now find what we must say about them, what sort they ought to be, if indeed we are to agree with what has been said before?" And Glaucon, laughing, said, "I then, Socrates, seem to be outside of the 'everyone'; for I am not sufficiently able at present to conjecture what sort of things we ought to say, though I do suspect." "At all events, surely," I said, "first you are sufficiently able to say this: that the melody is composed of three things—speech, harmony, and rhythm." "Yes," he said, "this at least." "Then as for the speech of it, does it surely differ in no way from speech that is not sung, in respect of the need to be spoken in the same types which we just now mentioned and in the same manner?" "True," he said.
ἀληθῆ, ἔφη. καὶ μὴν τήν γε ἁρμονίαν καὶ ῥυθμὸν ἀκολουθεῖν δεῖ τῷ λόγῳ. πῶς δʼ οὔ; ἀλλὰ μέντοι θρήνων γε καὶ ὀδυρμῶν ἔφαμεν ἐν λόγοις οὐδὲν προσδεῖσθαι. οὐ γὰρ οὖν.
"And indeed, the harmony and rhythm must follow the speech." "How could they not?" "But indeed, we said that in speeches there is no additional need for dirges and lamentations." "Indeed not." "What then are the lamenting harmonies?
τίνες οὖν θρηνώδεις ἁρμονίαι; λέγε μοι· σὺ γὰρ μουσικός. μειξολυδιστί, ἔφη, καὶ συντονολυδιστὶ καὶ τοιαῦταί τινες.
Tell me, for you are a musician." "Mixed Lydian," he said, "and Syntonolydian, and some such others." "Are not these then," I said, "to be removed?
οὐκοῦν αὗται, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἀφαιρετέαι; ἄχρηστοι γὰρ καὶ γυναιξὶν ἃς δεῖ ἐπιεικεῖς εἶναι, μὴ ὅτι ἀνδράσι. πάνυ γε. ἀλλὰ μὴν μέθη γε φύλαξιν ἀπρεπέστατον καὶ μαλακία καὶ ἀργία. πῶς γὰρ οὔ; τίνες οὖν μαλακαί τε καὶ συμποτικαὶ τῶν ἁρμονιῶν; ἰαστί, ἦ δʼ ὅς, καὶ λυδιστὶ αὖ τινες χαλαραὶ καλοῦνται. §3.399ταύταις οὖν, ὦ φίλε, ἐπὶ πολεμικῶν ἀνδρῶν ἔσθʼ ὅτι χρήσῃ; οὐδαμῶς, ἔφη· ἀλλὰ κινδυνεύει σοι δωριστὶ λείπεσθαι καὶ φρυγιστί. οὐκ οἶδα, ἔφην ἐγώ, τὰς ἁρμονίας, ἀλλὰ κατάλειπε ἐκείνην τὴν ἁρμονίαν, ἣ ἔν τε πολεμικῇ πράξει ὄντος ἀνδρείου καὶ ἐν πάσῃ βιαίῳ ἐργασίᾳ πρεπόντως ἂν μιμήσαιτο φθόγγους τε καὶ προσῳδίας, καὶ ἀποτυχόντος ἢ εἰς τραύματα ἢ εἰς θανάτους ἰόντος ἢ εἴς τινα ἄλλην συμφορὰν πεσόντος, ἐν πᾶσι τούτοις παρατεταγμένως καὶ καρτερούντως ἀμυνομένου τὴν τύχην· καὶ ἄλλην αὖ ἐν εἰρηνικῇ τε καὶ μὴ βιαίῳ ἀλλʼ ἐν ἑκουσίᾳ πράξει ὄντος, ἢ τινά τι πείθοντός τε καὶ δεομένου, ἢ εὐχῇ θεὸν ἢ διδαχῇ καὶ νουθετήσει ἄνθρωπον, ἢ τοὐναντίον ἄλλῳ δεομένῳ ἢ διδάσκοντι ἢ μεταπείθοντι ἑαυτὸν ἐπέχοντα, καὶ ἐκ τούτων πράξαντα κατὰ νοῦν, καὶ μὴ ὑπερηφάνως ἔχοντα, ἀλλὰ σωφρόνως τε καὶ μετρίως ἐν πᾶσι τούτοις πράττοντά τε καὶ τὰ ἀποβαίνοντα ἀγαπῶντα.
For they are useless even for women who are to be decent, not to speak of men." "By all means." "But indeed, drunkenness is most unbefitting for guardians, as are soft-heartedness and idleness." "How could they not be?" "What then are the soft and convivial harmonies?" "Ionian," he said, "and certain Lydian ones, in turn, are called relaxed." "For these, then, my friend, is there any use you will make of them for military men?" "In no way," he said; "but you seem to have left only Dorian and Phrygian." "I do not know the harmonies," I said, "but leave that harmony which would fittingly imitate the voices and accents of a brave man in warlike action and in every forced labor, and when he fails or goes to wounds or deaths or falls into some other misfortune, in all these fighting fortune with discipline and endurance; and leave another in turn in peaceful and not forced but voluntary action, either persuading someone of something and entreating, either a god in prayer or a human being in instruction and admonition, or on the contrary holding himself in check when another entreats or teaches or persuades him to change his mind, and having acted according to mind because of these, and not being proud, but acting soberly and moderately in all these and being content with what turns out.
ταύτας δύο ἁρμονίας, βίαιον, ἑκούσιον, δυστυχούντων, εὐτυχούντων, σωφρόνων, ἀνδρείων αἵτινες φθόγγους μιμήσονται κάλλιστα, ταύτας λεῖπε. ἀλλʼ, ἦ δʼ ὅς, οὐκ ἄλλας αἰτεῖς λείπειν ἢ ἃς νυνδὴ ἐγὼ ἔλεγον. οὐκ ἄρα, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, πολυχορδίας γε οὐδὲ παναρμονίου ἡμῖν δεήσει ἐν ταῖς ᾠδαῖς τε καὶ μέλεσιν. οὔ μοι, ἔφη, φαίνεται.
These two harmonies, the forced and the voluntary, which will best imitate the voices of the unfortunate, the fortunate, the temperate, and the brave—leave these." "But," he said, "you are asking to leave no others than those I was just now mentioning." "We shall not then," I said, "have any need for many strings or for an all-harmonic instrument in our songs and melodies." "It does not seem so to me," he said.
τριγώνων ἄρα καὶ πηκτίδων καὶ πάντων ὀργάνων ὅσα πολύχορδα καὶ πολυαρμόνια, δημιουργοὺς οὐ θρέψομεν. οὐ φαινόμεθα.
"Then of triangles and pectides and all instruments that are many-stringed and many-harmonic, we shall not support the craftsmen." "We do not seem to." "What then?
τί δέ; αὐλοποιοὺς ἢ αὐλητὰς παραδέξῃ εἰς τὴν πόλιν;
Will you receive flute-makers or flute-players into the city?
ἢ οὐ τοῦτο πολυχορδότατον, καὶ αὐτὰ τὰ παναρμόνια αὐλοῦ τυγχάνει ὄντα μίμημα; δῆλα δή, ἦ δʼ ὅς.
Or is this not the most many-stringed of all, and are not the all-harmonic instruments themselves an imitation of the flute?" "Clearly indeed," he said.
λύρα δή σοι, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, καὶ κιθάρα λείπεται κατὰ πόλιν χρήσιμα· καὶ αὖ κατʼ ἀγροὺς τοῖς νομεῦσι σῦριγξ ἄν τις εἴη. ὡς γοῦν, ἔφη, ὁ λόγος ἡμῖν σημαίνει.
"Then," I said, "the lyre and the cithara are left for you, useful in the city; and in turn, in the fields there would be some panpipe for the shepherds." "So indeed the argument indicates to us," he said.
οὐδέν γε, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, καινὸν ποιοῦμεν, ὦ φίλε, κρίνοντες τὸν Ἀπόλλω καὶ τὰ τοῦ Ἀπόλλωνος ὄργανα πρὸ Μαρσύου τε καὶ τῶν ἐκείνου ὀργάνων. μὰ Δία, ἦ δʼ ὅς, οὔ μοι φαινόμεθα. καὶ νὴ τὸν κύνα, εἶπον, λελήθαμέν γε διακαθαίροντες πάλιν ἣν ἄρτι τρυφᾶν ἔφαμεν πόλιν. σωφρονοῦντές γε ἡμεῖς, ἦ δʼ ὅς.
"We are doing nothing new, my friend," I said, "in deciding for Apollo and the instruments of Apollo rather than Marsyas and his instruments." "By Zeus," he said, "we do not seem to." "And by the dog," I said, "we have indeed, without noticing it, been purging again the city which we just now said was luxurious." "And wisely of us," he said.
ἴθι δή, ἔφην, καὶ τὰ λοιπὰ καθαίρωμεν.
"Come then," I said, "and let us purge the rest."