§3.392ὧν ἕνεκα παυστέον τοὺς τοιούτους μύθους, μὴ ἡμῖν πολλὴν εὐχέρειαν ἐντίκτωσι τοῖς νέοις πονηρίας. κομιδῇ μὲν οὖν, ἔφη.
"For these reasons, we must put an end to such stories, lest they breed in our young people a great readiness for wickedness." "By all means, indeed," he said.
τί οὖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἡμῖν ἔτι λοιπὸν εἶδος λόγων πέρι ὁριζομένοις οἵους τε λεκτέον καὶ μή;
"What, then," I said, "is there still left for us as we define what kind of speech must be spoken and what not?
περὶ γὰρ θεῶν ὡς δεῖ λέγεσθαι εἴρηται, καὶ περὶ δαιμόνων τε καὶ ἡρώων καὶ τῶν ἐν Ἅιδου. πάνυ μὲν οὖν. οὐκοῦν καὶ περὶ ἀνθρώπων τὸ λοιπὸν εἴη ἄν; δῆλα δή. ἀδύνατον δή, ὦ φίλε, ἡμῖν τοῦτό γε ἐν τῷ παρόντι τάξαι. πῶς; ὅτι οἶμαι ἡμᾶς ἐρεῖν ὡς ἄρα καὶ ποιηταὶ καὶ λογοποιοὶ κακῶς λέγουσιν περὶ ἀνθρώπων τὰ μέγιστα, ὅτι εἰσὶν ἄδικοι μὲν εὐδαίμονες πολλοί, δίκαιοι δὲ ἄθλιοι, καὶ ὡς λυσιτελεῖ τὸ ἀδικεῖν, ἐὰν λανθάνῃ, ἡ δὲ δικαιοσύνη ἀλλότριον μὲν ἀγαθόν, οἰκεία δὲ ζημία· καὶ τὰ μὲν τοιαῦτα ἀπερεῖν λέγειν, τὰ δʼ ἐναντία τούτων προστάξειν ᾄδειν τε καὶ μυθολογεῖν.
For how we must speak about gods has been said, and also about divinities, heroes, and those in Hades." "Very much so." "Would not, then, what remains be about human beings?" "Clearly so." "But it is impossible, my friend, for us to regulate this at the present time." "How so?" "Because I think we shall say that both poets and prose-writers speak badly about human beings in the most important matters—that many unjust men are happy, while just men are wretched, and that doing injustice is profitable if it is unseen, while justice is another's good but one's own loss; and we shall forbid them to say such things, and command them to sing and tell myths of the opposite.
ἢ οὐκ οἴει; εὖ μὲν οὖν, ἔφη, οἶδα.
Or do you not think so?" "I know it well," he said.
οὐκοῦν ἐὰν ὁμολογῇς ὀρθῶς με λέγειν, φήσω σε ὡμολογηκέναι ἃ πάλαι ζητοῦμεν; ὀρθῶς, ἔφη, ὑπέλαβες.
"Then, if you agree that I speak rightly, shall I say that you have agreed to what we have been seeking for a long time?" "You have understood rightly," he said.
οὐκοῦν περί γε ἀνθρώπων ὅτι τοιούτους δεῖ λόγους λέγεσθαι, τότε διομολογησόμεθα, ὅταν εὕρωμεν οἷόν ἐστιν δικαιοσύνη καὶ ὡς φύσει λυσιτελοῦν τῷ ἔχοντι, ἐάντε δοκῇ ἐάντε μὴ τοιοῦτος εἶναι; ἀληθέστατα, ἔφη.
"Shall we not then agree on how speeches about human beings must be spoken when we find out what sort of thing justice is, and how it is by nature profitable to the one who has it, whether he seems to be such or not?" "Most true," he said.
τὰ μὲν δὴ λόγων πέρι ἐχέτω τέλος· τὸ δὲ λέξεως, ὡς ἐγὼ οἶμαι, μετὰ τοῦτο σκεπτέον, καὶ ἡμῖν ἅ τε λεκτέον καὶ ὡς λεκτέον παντελῶς ἐσκέψεται. καὶ ὁ Ἀδείμαντος, τοῦτο, ἦ δʼ ὅς, οὐ μανθάνω ὅτι λέγεις. ἀλλὰ μέντοι, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, δεῖ γε·
"Let our discussion about the content of speeches have its end; and next, as I think, we must consider the style of speaking, and both what must be said and how it must be said will have been completely examined by us." And Adeimantus said, "I do not understand what you mean by this." "But indeed," I said, "you must.
ἴσως οὖν τῇδε μᾶλλον εἴσῃ.
Perhaps, then, you will know better this way.
ἆρʼ οὐ πάντα ὅσα ὑπὸ μυθολόγων ἢ ποιητῶν λέγεται διήγησις οὖσα τυγχάνει ἢ γεγονότων ἢ ὄντων ἢ μελλόντων; τί γάρ, ἔφη, ἄλλο;
Is not everything spoken by mythologists or poets a narrative of what has happened, what is, or what is to be?" "What else indeed?" he said.
ἆρʼ οὖν οὐχὶ ἤτοι ἁπλῇ διηγήσει ἢ διὰ μιμήσεως γιγνομένῃ ἢ διʼ ἀμφοτέρων περαίνουσιν; καὶ τοῦτο, ἦ δʼ ὅς, ἔτι δέομαι σαφέστερον μαθεῖν. γελοῖος, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἔοικα διδάσκαλος εἶναι καὶ ἀσαφής·
"Do they not then accomplish this either by simple narrative, or by narrative through imitation, or by both?" "This too," he said, "I still need to understand more clearly." "I seem to be a ridiculous and obscure teacher," I said.
ὥσπερ οὖν οἱ ἀδύνατοι λέγειν, οὐ κατὰ ὅλον ἀλλʼ ἀπολαβὼν μέρος τι πειράσομαί σοι ἐν τούτῳ δηλῶσαι ὃ βούλομαι. §3.393καί μοι εἰπέ· ἐπίστασαι τῆς Ἰλιάδος τὰ πρῶτα, ἐν οἷς ὁ ποιητής φησι τὸν μὲν Χρύσην δεῖσθαι τοῦ Ἀγαμέμνονος ἀπολῦσαι τὴν θυγατέρα, τὸν δὲ χαλεπαίνειν, τὸν δέ, ἐπειδὴ οὐκ ἐτύγχανεν, κατεύχεσθαι τῶν Ἀχαιῶν πρὸς τὸν θεόν; ἔγωγε. οἶσθʼ οὖν ὅτι μέχρι μὲν τούτων τῶν ἐπῶν—
"
καὶ ἐλίσσετο πάντας Ἀχαιούς,
Ἀτρείδα δὲ μάλιστα δύω, κοσμήτορε λαῶν
"
λέγει τε αὐτὸς ὁ ποιητὴς καὶ οὐδὲ ἐπιχειρεῖ ἡμῶν τὴν διάνοιαν ἄλλοσε τρέπειν ὡς ἄλλος τις ὁ λέγων ἢ αὐτός· τὰ δὲ μετὰ ταῦτα ὥσπερ αὐτὸς ὢν ὁ Χρύσης λέγει καὶ πειρᾶται ἡμᾶς ὅτι μάλιστα ποιῆσαι μὴ Ὅμηρον δοκεῖν εἶναι τὸν λέγοντα ἀλλὰ τὸν ἱερέα, πρεσβύτην ὄντα.
"So, like those who are unable to speak, not taking the whole but taking some part, I will try to show you in this what I mean." "And tell me: do you know the first parts of the Iliad, in which the poet says that Chryses begged Agamemnon to release his daughter, and that the latter was angry, and that the former, when he did not succeed, prayed to the god against the Achaeans?" "I do." "You know then that up to these verses— "and he begged all the Achaeans, but especially the two sons of Atreus, leaders of the host, "the poet himself speaks and does not even try to turn our mind elsewhere as if someone other than himself were speaking; but what follows he speaks as if he were Chryses himself, and tries as much as possible to make us think that the speaker is not Homer, but the priest, who is an old man.
καὶ τὴν ἄλλην δὴ πᾶσαν σχεδόν τι οὕτω πεποίηται διήγησιν περί τε τῶν ἐν Ἰλίῳ καὶ περὶ τῶν ἐν Ἰθάκῃ καὶ ὅλῃ Ὀδυσσείᾳ παθημάτων. πάνυ μὲν οὖν, ἔφη.
And he has made almost all the rest of his narrative about the events in Ilium, and about the sufferings in Ithaca and the whole Odyssey in this way." "Quite so," he said.
οὐκοῦν διήγησις μέν ἐστιν καὶ ὅταν τὰς ῥήσεις ἑκάστοτε λέγῃ καὶ ὅταν τὰ μεταξὺ τῶν ῥήσεων; πῶς γὰρ οὔ; ἀλλʼ ὅταν γέ τινα λέγῃ ῥῆσιν ὥς τις ἄλλος ὤν, ἆρʼ οὐ τότε ὁμοιοῦν αὐτὸν φήσομεν ὅτι μάλιστα τὴν αὑτοῦ λέξιν ἑκάστῳ ὃν ἂν προείπῃ ὡς ἐροῦντα; φήσομεν· τί γάρ; οὐκοῦν τό γε ὁμοιοῦν ἑαυτὸν ἄλλῳ ἢ κατὰ φωνὴν ἢ κατὰ σχῆμα μιμεῖσθαί ἐστιν ἐκεῖνον ᾧ ἄν τις ὁμοιοῖ; τί μήν; ἐν δὴ τῷ τοιούτῳ, ὡς ἔοικεν, οὗτός τε καὶ οἱ ἄλλοι ποιηταὶ διὰ μιμήσεως τὴν διήγησιν ποιοῦνται. πάνυ μὲν οὖν. εἰ δέ γε μηδαμοῦ ἑαυτὸν ἀποκρύπτοιτο ὁ ποιητής, πᾶσα ἂν αὐτῷ ἄνευ μιμήσεως ἡ ποίησίς τε καὶ διήγησις γεγονυῖα εἴη.
"Is it not narrative both when he speaks the speeches each time and when he speaks the parts between the speeches?" "Of course." "But when he speaks a certain speech as if he were someone else, shall we not say that he then makes his own style as like as possible to each person whom he has announced beforehand as speaking?" "We shall, of course." "And is not making oneself like another, either in voice or in gesture, imitating that person whom one makes oneself like?" "Surely." "In such cases, then, as it seems, he and the other poets make their narrative through imitation." "By all means." "But if the poet should nowhere hide himself, his whole poetry and narrative would have been done for him without imitation.
ἵνα δὲ μὴ εἴπῃς ὅτι οὐκ αὖ μανθάνεις, ὅπως ἂν τοῦτο γένοιτο ἐγὼ φράσω.
And so that you may not say again that you do not understand, I will explain how this would be.
εἰ γὰρ Ὅμηρος εἰπὼν ὅτι ἦλθεν ὁ Χρύσης τῆς τε θυγατρὸς λύτρα φέρων καὶ ἱκέτης τῶν Ἀχαιῶν, μάλιστα δὲ τῶν βασιλέων, μετὰ τοῦτο μὴ ὡς Χρύσης γενόμενος ἔλεγεν ἀλλʼ ἔτι ὡς Ὅμηρος, οἶσθʼ ὅτι οὐκ ἂν μίμησις ἦν ἀλλὰ ἁπλῆ διήγησις.
For if Homer, after saying that Chryses came carrying ransom for his daughter and as a suppliant of the Achaeans, and especially of the kings, did not speak after this as having become Chryses but still as Homer, you know that it would not have been imitation but simple narrative.
εἶχε δʼ ἂν ὧδε πως—φράσω δὲ ἄνευ μέτρου· οὐ γάρ εἰμι ποιητικός—ἐλθὼν ὁ ἱερεὺς ηὔχετο ἐκείνοις μὲν τοὺς θεοὺς δοῦναι ἑλόντας τὴν Τροίαν αὐτοὺς σωθῆναι, τὴν δὲ θυγατέρα οἱ λῦσαι δεξαμένους ἄποινα καὶ τὸν θεὸν αἰδεσθέντας.
And it would have been something like this—I shall speak without meter, for I am not poetic—having come, the priest prayed that the gods might grant to them to capture Troy and be saved themselves, but that they should release his daughter to him, accepting the ransom and reverencing the god."