§2.376πῶς δή; ἔφη·
"How so?" he said.
οὐ γὰρ ἐννοῶ. καὶ τοῦτο, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἐν τοῖς κυσὶν κατόψει, ὃ καὶ ἄξιον θαυμάσαι τοῦ θηρίου. τὸ ποῖον; ὅτι ὃν μὲν ἂν ἴδῃ ἀγνῶτα, χαλεπαίνει, οὐδὲ ἓν κακὸν προπεπονθώς· ὃν δʼ ἂν γνώριμον, ἀσπάζεται, κἂν μηδὲν πώποτε ὑπʼ αὐτοῦ ἀγαθὸν πεπόνθῃ.
"For I do not understand." "This too," I said, "you will observe in dogs, which is indeed worthy of wonder in the beast." "What kind of thing?" "That whenever it sees someone it does not know, it gets angry, even though it has never suffered any harm from him before; but when it sees an acquaintance, it welcomes him, even if it has never received any good from him.
ἢ οὔπω τοῦτο ἐθαύμασας; οὐ πάνυ, ἔφη, μέχρι τούτου προσέσχον τὸν νοῦν· ὅτι δέ που δρᾷ ταῦτα, δῆλον. ἀλλὰ μὴν κομψόν γε φαίνεται τὸ πάθος αὐτοῦ τῆς φύσεως καὶ ὡς ἀληθῶς φιλόσοφον. πῇ δή; ἧι, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὄψιν οὐδενὶ ἄλλῳ φίλην καὶ ἐχθρὰν διακρίνει ἢ τῷ τὴν μὲν καταμαθεῖν, τὴν δὲ ἀγνοῆσαι.
Or have you not yet wondered at this?" "Not entirely," he said, "have I paid attention to it up to this point; but that it does these things is clear." "Yet this affection of its nature appears elegant indeed and truly philosophical." "In what way?" "In that," I said, "it distinguishes a friendly appearance from a hostile one by nothing else than by having known the one, and being ignorant of the other.
καίτοι πῶς οὐκ ἂν φιλομαθὲς εἴη συνέσει τε καὶ ἀγνοίᾳ ὁριζόμενον τό τε οἰκεῖον καὶ τὸ ἀλλότριον; οὐδαμῶς, ἦ δʼ ὅς, ὅπως οὔ. ἀλλὰ μέντοι, εἶπον ἐγώ, τό γε φιλομαθὲς καὶ φιλόσοφον ταὐτόν; ταὐτὸν γάρ, ἔφη.
And yet, how could that which defines what is its own and what is foreign by comprehension and ignorance not be a lover of learning?" "By no means," he said, "how could it not be?" "But indeed," I said, "are the lover of learning and the philosophical the same?" "They are the same," he said.
οὐκοῦν θαρροῦντες τιθῶμεν καὶ ἐν ἀνθρώπῳ, εἰ μέλλει πρὸς τοὺς οἰκείους καὶ γνωρίμους πρᾷός τις ἔσεσθαι, φύσει φιλόσοφον καὶ φιλομαθῆ αὐτὸν δεῖν εἶναι; τιθῶμεν, ἔφη.
"Shall we then confidently establish also in the case of a human being that, if he is to be gentle to his own people and acquaintances, he must be by nature philosophical and a lover of learning?" "Let us establish it," he said.
φιλόσοφος δὴ καὶ θυμοειδὴς καὶ ταχὺς καὶ ἰσχυρὸς ἡμῖν τὴν φύσιν ἔσται ὁ μέλλων καλὸς κἀγαθὸς ἔσεσθαι φύλαξ πόλεως. παντάπασι μὲν οὖν, ἔφη.
"Then the one who is to be a fine and good guardian of our city will be philosophical, spirited, swift, and strong in nature." "Entirely so," he said.
οὗτος μὲν δὴ ἂν οὕτως ὑπάρχοι.
"Then let this character be established in this way.
θρέψονται δὲ δὴ ἡμῖν οὗτοι καὶ παιδευθήσονται τίνα τρόπον;
But in what way will these men be reared and educated by us?
καὶ ἆρά τι προὔργου ἡμῖν ἐστιν αὐτὸ σκοποῦσι πρὸς τὸ κατιδεῖν οὗπερ ἕνεκα πάντα σκοποῦμεν, δικαιοσύνην τε καὶ ἀδικίαν τίνα τρόπον ἐν πόλει γίγνεται;
And does the investigation of this help us at all in perceiving that for the sake of which we are investigating everything, namely, in what way justice and injustice come to be in a city?
ἵνα μὴ ἐῶμεν ἱκανὸν λόγον ἢ συχνὸν διεξίωμεν. καὶ ὁ τοῦ Γλαύκωνος ἀδελφός, πάνυ μὲν οὖν, ἔφη, ἔγωγε προσδοκῶ προὔργου εἶναι εἰς τοῦτο ταύτην τὴν σκέψιν. μὰ Δία, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὦ φίλε Ἀδείμαντε, οὐκ ἄρα ἀφετέον, οὐδʼ εἰ μακροτέρα τυγχάνει οὖσα. οὐ γὰρ οὖν. ἴθι οὖν, ὥσπερ ἐν μύθῳ μυθολογοῦντές τε καὶ σχολὴν ἄγοντες λόγῳ παιδεύωμεν τοὺς ἄνδρας. ἀλλὰ χρή. τίς οὖν ἡ παιδεία;
We want to know this so that we neither omit a necessary argument nor go through an excessively long one." And Glaucon's brother said, "I certainly expect this inquiry to be helpful for this purpose." "By Zeus," I said, "my friend Adeimantus, then we must not let it go, even if it happens to be rather long." "Indeed we must not." "Come then, let us educate the men in speech, just as if we were telling stories in a myth and enjoying our leisure." "We must indeed." "What then is the education?
ἢ χαλεπὸν εὑρεῖν βελτίω τῆς ὑπὸ τοῦ πολλοῦ χρόνου ηὑρημένης;
Or is it difficult to find a better one than that which has been discovered by the passage of time?
ἔστιν δέ που ἡ μὲν ἐπὶ σώμασι γυμναστική, ἡ δʼ ἐπὶ ψυχῇ μουσική. ἔστιν γάρ. ἆρʼ οὖν οὐ μουσικῇ πρότερον ἀρξόμεθα παιδεύοντες ἢ γυμναστικῇ; πῶς δʼ οὔ; μουσικῆς δʼ, εἶπον, τιθεῖς λόγους, ἢ οὔ; ἔγωγε. λόγων δὲ διττὸν εἶδος, τὸ μὲν ἀληθές, ψεῦδος δʼ ἕτερον; ναί. §2.377παιδευτέον δʼ ἐν ἀμφοτέροις, πρότερον δʼ ἐν τοῖς ψευδέσιν; οὐ μανθάνω, ἔφη, πῶς λέγεις. οὐ μανθάνεις, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὅτι πρῶτον τοῖς παιδίοις μύθους λέγομεν;
This consists, I suppose, of gymnastics for the body, and music for the soul." "It does indeed." "Shall we not then begin educating them with music before gymnastics?" "Of course." "And under music," I said, "do you include speeches, or not?" "I do." "And of speeches, are there two kinds, one true, and the other false?" "Yes." "And they must be educated in both, but first in the false ones?" "I do not understand," he said, "what you mean." "Do you not understand," I said, "that first we tell myths to children?
τοῦτο δέ που ὡς τὸ ὅλον εἰπεῖν ψεῦδος, ἔνι δὲ καὶ ἀληθῆ.
And this, to speak generally, is false, though there is some truth in it.
πρότερον δὲ μύθοις πρὸς τὰ παιδία ἢ γυμνασίοις χρώμεθα. ἔστι ταῦτα. τοῦτο δὴ ἔλεγον, ὅτι μουσικῆς πρότερον ἁπτέον ἢ γυμναστικῆς. ὀρθῶς, ἔφη.
And we use myths with children before gymnastics." "That is so." "This is what I meant when I said we must lay hold of music before gymnastics." "Rightly," he said.
οὐκοῦν οἶσθʼ ὅτι ἀρχὴ παντὸς ἔργου μέγιστον, ἄλλως τε δὴ καὶ νέῳ καὶ ἁπαλῷ ὁτῳοῦν; μάλιστα γὰρ δὴ τότε πλάττεται, καὶ ἐνδύεται τύπος ὃν ἄν τις βούληται ἐνσημήνασθαι ἑκάστῳ. κομιδῇ μὲν οὖν. ἆρʼ οὖν ῥᾳδίως οὕτω παρήσομεν τοὺς ἐπιτυχόντας ὑπὸ τῶν ἐπιτυχόντων μύθους πλασθέντας ἀκούειν τοὺς παῖδας καὶ λαμβάνειν ἐν ταῖς ψυχαῖς ὡς ἐπὶ τὸ πολὺ ἐναντίας δόξας ἐκείναις ἅς, ἐπειδὰν τελεωθῶσιν, ἔχειν οἰησόμεθα δεῖν αὐτούς; οὐδʼ ὁπωστιοῦν παρήσομεν. πρῶτον δὴ ἡμῖν, ὡς ἔοικεν, ἐπιστατητέον τοῖς μυθοποιοῖς, καὶ ὃν μὲν ἂν καλὸν ποιήσωσιν, ἐγκριτέον, ὃν δʼ ἂν μή, ἀποκριτέον.
"Then do you know that the beginning of every work is the most important part, especially for any young and tender thing?" "For it is then especially that it is shaped, and the stamp which anyone wishes to impress upon each individual sinks in." "Quite so." "Shall we then so easily permit the children to hear just any myths fashioned by just any people, and to receive in their souls opinions for the most part opposite to those which we shall think they ought to have when they are grown up?" "We shall not permit it in any way." "First then, as it seems, we must supervise the myth-makers, and whichever fine myth they make, we must accept, but whichever is not, we must reject.
τοὺς δʼ ἐγκριθέντας πείσομεν τὰς τροφούς τε καὶ μητέρας λέγειν τοῖς παισίν, καὶ πλάττειν τὰς ψυχὰς αὐτῶν τοῖς μύθοις πολὺ μᾶλλον ἢ τὰ σώματα ταῖς χερσίν· ὧν δὲ νῦν λέγουσι τοὺς πολλοὺς ἐκβλητέον. ποίους δή; ἔφη.
And we shall persuade the nurses and mothers to tell the accepted ones to the children, and to shape their souls with the myths much more than their bodies with their hands; but most of the myths they tell now must be cast out." "What kind of myths?" he said.
ἐν τοῖς μείζοσιν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, μύθοις ὀψόμεθα καὶ τοὺς ἐλάττους.
"In the larger myths," I said, "we shall see also the smaller ones.
δεῖ γὰρ δὴ τὸν αὐτὸν τύπον εἶναι καὶ ταὐτὸν δύνασθαι τούς τε μείζους καὶ τοὺς ἐλάττους. ἢ οὐκ οἴει;
For both the larger and the smaller must have the same stamp and the same power.
ἔγωγʼ, ἔφη· ἀλλʼ οὐκ ἐννοῶ οὐδὲ τοὺς μείζους τίνας λέγεις. οὓς Ἡσίοδός τε, εἶπον, καὶ Ὅμηρος ἡμῖν ἐλεγέτην καὶ οἱ ἄλλοι ποιηταί.
Or do you not think so?" "I do," he said; "but I do not understand which ones you mean by the larger." "Those," I said, "which both Hesiod and Homer told us, and the other poets.
οὗτοι γάρ που μύθους τοῖς ἀνθρώποις ψευδεῖς συντιθέντες ἔλεγόν τε καὶ λέγουσι. ποίους δή, ἦ δʼ ὅς, καὶ τί αὐτῶν μεμφόμενος λέγεις; ὅπερ, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, χρὴ καὶ πρῶτον καὶ μάλιστα μέμφεσθαι, ἄλλως τε καὶ ἐάν τις μὴ καλῶς ψεύδηται. τί τοῦτο; ὅταν εἰκάζῃ τις κακῶς τῷ λόγῳ, περὶ θεῶν τε καὶ ἡρώων οἷοί εἰσιν, ὥσπερ γραφεὺς μηδὲν ἐοικότα γράφων οἷς ἂν ὅμοια βουληθῇ γράψαι. καὶ γάρ, ἔφη, ὀρθῶς ἔχει τά γε τοιαῦτα μέμφεσθαι.
For they, I believe, composed false myths for mankind and told them, and still tell them." "What kind of myths," he said, "and what is it in them that you find fault with and speak of?" "That which," I said, "ought first and most of all to be blamed, especially if someone does not lie well." "What is this?" "Whenever anyone represents badly in speech what gods and heroes are like, just like a painter who paints pictures that in no way resemble the things he wants to paint likenesses of." "Indeed," he said, "it is right to blame such things.
ἀλλὰ πῶς δὴ λέγομεν καὶ ποῖα;
But how do we say this, and what kind of things do we mean?"