§94ΣΩ. οὗτος μὲν δή σοι τοιοῦτος διδάσκαλος ἀρετῆς, ὃν καὶ σὺ ὁμολογεῖς ἐν τοῖς ἄριστον τῶν προτέρων εἶναι· ἄλλον δὲ δὴ σκεψώμεθα, Ἀριστείδην τὸν Λυσιμάχου·
SOC. This, then, is the kind of teacher of virtue you have, whom you yourself agree to be among the best of the men of former times; but let us indeed consider another, Aristides the son of Lysimachus.
ἢ τοῦτον οὐχ ὁμολογεῖς ἀγαθὸν γεγονέναι;
Or do you not agree that he was a good man?
ΑΝ. ἔγωγε, πάντως δήπου.
ANY. I do indeed, altogether of course.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ οὗτος τὸν ὑὸν τὸν αὑτοῦ Λυσίμαχον, ὅσα μὲν διδασκάλων εἴχετο, κάλλιστα Ἀθηναίων ἐπαίδευσε, ἄνδρα δὲ βελτίω δοκεῖ σοι ὁτουοῦν πεποιηκέναι;
SOC. Therefore he too educated his own son Lysimachus, in as many things as depended on teachers, best of the Athenians; but does he seem to you to have made him a better man than anyone else?
τούτῳ γάρ που καὶ συγγέγονας καὶ ὁρᾷς οἷός ἐστιν.
For you have presumably associated with him and see what he is like.
εἰ δὲ βούλει, Περικλέα, οὕτως μεγαλοπρεπῶς σοφὸν ἄνδρα, οἶσθʼ ὅτι δύο ὑεῖς ἔθρεψε, Πάραλον καὶ Ξάνθιππον;
Or if you wish, Pericles, that so magnificently wise man, do you know that he brought up two sons, Paralus and Xanthippus?
ΑΝ. ἔγωγε.
ANY. I do.
ΣΩ. τούτους μέντοι, ὡς οἶσθα καὶ σύ, ἱππέας μὲν ἐδίδαξεν οὐδενὸς χείρους Ἀθηναίων, καὶ μουσικὴν καὶ ἀγωνίαν καὶ τἆλλα ἐπαίδευσεν ὅσα τέχνης ἔχεται οὐδενὸς χείρους· ἀγαθοὺς δὲ ἄρα ἄνδρας οὐκ ἐβούλετο ποιῆσαι;
SOC. These indeed, as you also know, he taught to be horsemen second to none of the Athenians, and educated them in music and athletic contests and the rest as many as depend on skill, second to none; did he then not wish to make them good men?
δοκῶ μέν, ἐβούλετο, ἀλλὰ μὴ οὐκ ᾖ διδακτόν.
I think he wished to, but perhaps it is not teachable.
ἵνα δὲ μὴ ὀλίγους οἴῃ καὶ τοὺς φαυλοτάτους Ἀθηναίων ἀδυνάτους γεγονέναι τοῦτο τὸ πρᾶγμα, ἐνθυμήθητι ὅτι Θουκυδίδης αὖ δύο ὑεῖς ἔθρεψεν, Μελησίαν καὶ Στέφανον, καὶ τούτους ἐπαίδευσεν τά τε ἄλλα εὖ καὶ ἐπάλαισαν κάλλιστα Ἀθηναίων—τὸν μὲν γὰρ Ξανθίᾳ ἔδωκε, τὸν δὲ Εὐδώρῳ· οὗτοι δέ που ἐδόκουν τῶν τότε κάλλιστα παλαίειν—ἢ οὐ μέμνησαι;
And lest you should think that only a few and the most insignificant of the Athenians have been incapable in this matter, reflect that Thucydides also brought up two sons, Melesias and Stephanus, and educated them well in other things, and they wrestled best of the Athenians—for he gave one to Xanthias and the other to Eudorus, and these, I suppose, were reputed to wrestle best of those of that time—or do you not remember?
ΑΝ. ἔγωγε, ἀκοῇ.
ANY. I do, by hearsay.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν δῆλον ὅτι οὗτος οὐκ ἄν ποτε, οὗ μὲν ἔδει δαπανώμενον διδάσκειν, ταῦτα μὲν ἐδίδαξε τοὺς παῖδας τοὺς αὑτοῦ, οὗ δὲ οὐδὲν ἔδει ἀναλώσαντα ἀγαθοὺς ἄνδρας ποιῆσαι, ταῦτα δὲ οὐκ ἐδίδαξεν, εἰ διδακτὸν ἦν;
SOC. Is it not clear, then, that he would never, where he had to spend money to teach them these things, have taught his own children, but where it was not necessary to spend anything to make them good men, have failed to teach them these, if it was teachable?
ἀλλὰ γὰρ ἴσως ὁ Θουκυδίδης φαῦλος ἦν, καὶ οὐκ ἦσαν αὐτῷ πλεῖστοι φίλοι Ἀθηναίων καὶ τῶν συμμάχων;
But was Thucydides perhaps an insignificant man, and had he not very many friends among the Athenians and the allies?
καὶ οἰκίας μεγάλης ἦν καὶ ἐδύνατο μέγα ἐν τῇ πόλει καὶ ἐν τοῖς ἄλλοις Ἕλλησιν, ὥστε εἴπερ ἦν τοῦτο διδακτόν, ἐξευρεῖν ἂν ὅστις ἔμελλεν αὐτοῦ τοὺς ὑεῖς ἀγαθοὺς ποιήσειν, ἢ τῶν ἐπιχωρίων τις ἢ τῶν ξένων, εἰ αὐτὸς μὴ ἐσχόλαζεν διὰ τὴν τῆς πόλεως ἐπιμέλειαν.
And he was of a great house and had great influence in the city and among the other Greeks, so that if this was teachable, he would have found out whoever was going to make his sons good, whether someone of the locals or of the foreigners, if he himself lacked leisure because of his care for the city.
ἀλλὰ γάρ, ὦ ἑταῖρε Ἄνυτε, μὴ οὐκ ᾖ διδακτὸν ἀρετή.
But indeed, friend Anytus, perhaps virtue is not teachable.
§95ΑΝ. ὦ Σώκρατες, ῥᾳδίως μοι δοκεῖς κακῶς λέγειν ἀνθρώπους.
ANY. Socrates, you seem to me to speak ill of people easily.
ἐγὼ μὲν οὖν ἄν σοι συμβουλεύσαιμι, εἰ ἐθέλεις ἐμοὶ πείθεσθαι, εὐλαβεῖσθαι· ὡς ἴσως μὲν καὶ ἐν ἄλλῃ πόλει ῥᾷόν ἐστιν κακῶς ποιεῖν ἀνθρώπους ἢ εὖ, ἐν τῇδε δὲ καὶ πάνυ· οἶμαι δὲ σὲ καὶ αὐτὸν εἰδέναι.
I indeed would advise you, if you are willing to obey me, to be careful; because perhaps also in another city it is easier to do people harm than good, but in this one, extremely so; and I think you know this yourself.
ΣΩ. ὦ Μένων, Ἄνυτος μέν μοι δοκεῖ χαλεπαίνειν, καὶ οὐδὲν θαυμάζω· οἴεται γάρ με πρῶτον μὲν κακηγορεῖν τούτους τοὺς ἄνδρας, ἔπειτα ἡγεῖται καὶ αὐτὸς εἶναι εἷς τούτων.
SOC. Meno, Anytus seems to me to be angry, and I do not wonder at all; for he thinks first that I am slandering these men, and then he believes that he himself is one of them.
ἀλλʼ οὗτος μὲν ἐάν ποτε γνῷ οἷόν ἐστιν τὸ κακῶς λέγειν, παύσεται χαλεπαίνων, νῦν δὲ ἀγνοεῖ·
But if he ever comes to know what speaking ill of someone is, he will cease to be angry, but now he does not know.
σὺ δέ μοι εἰπέ, οὐ καὶ παρʼ ὑμῖν εἰσιν καλοὶ κἀγαθοὶ ἄνδρες;
But do you tell me: are there not gentlemanly men among you too?
ΜΕΝ. πάνυ γε.
MEN. Certainly.
ΣΩ. τί οὖν;
SOC. What then?
ἐθέλουσιν οὗτοι παρέχειν αὑτοὺς διδασκάλους τοῖς νέοις, καὶ ὁμολογεῖν διδάσκαλοί τε εἶναι καὶ διδακτὸν ἀρετήν;
Are they willing to offer themselves as teachers to the young, and to agree both that they are teachers and that virtue is teachable?
ΜΕΝ. οὐ μὰ τὸν Δία, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἀλλὰ τοτὲ μὲν ἂν αὐτῶν ἀκούσαις ὡς διδακτόν, τοτὲ δὲ ὡς οὔ.
MEN. No, by Zeus, Socrates, but you would hear them sometimes saying that it is teachable, and sometimes that it is not.
ΣΩ. φῶμεν οὖν τούτους διδασκάλους εἶναι τούτου τοῦ πράγματος, οἷς μηδὲ αὐτὸ τοῦτο ὁμολογεῖται;
SOC. Are we to say, then, that they are teachers of this subject, when not even this very thing is agreed upon by them?
ΜΕΝ. οὔ μοι δοκεῖ, ὦ Σώκρατες.
MEN. I do not think so, Socrates.
ΣΩ. τί δὲ δή;
SOC. What then?
οἱ σοφισταί σοι οὗτοι, οἵπερ μόνοι ἐπαγγέλλονται, δοκοῦσι διδάσκαλοι εἶναι ἀρετῆς;
Do these sophists, who alone profess to be, seem to you to be teachers of virtue?
ΜΕΝ. καὶ Γοργίου μάλιστα, ὦ Σώκρατες, ταῦτα ἄγαμαι, ὅτι οὐκ ἄν ποτε αὐτοῦ τοῦτο ἀκούσαις ὑπισχνουμένου, ἀλλὰ καὶ τῶν ἄλλων καταγελᾷ, ὅταν ἀκούσῃ ὑπισχνουμένων· ἀλλὰ λέγειν οἴεται δεῖν ποιεῖν δεινούς.
MEN. And in this, Socrates, I especially admire Gorgias, because you would never hear him promising this, but he even laughs at the others when he hears them promising it; rather, he thinks he ought to make them clever at speaking.
ΣΩ. οὐδʼ ἄρα σοὶ δοκοῦσιν οἱ σοφισταὶ διδάσκαλοι εἶναι;
SOC. Then do the sophists not seem to you to be teachers either?
ΜΕΝ. οὐκ ἔχω λέγειν, ὦ Σώκρατες.
MEN. I cannot say, Socrates.
καὶ γὰρ αὐτὸς ὅπερ οἱ πολλοὶ πέπονθα· τοτὲ μέν μοι δοκοῦσιν, τοτὲ δὲ οὔ.
For I myself have had the same experience as the many: sometimes they seem to me to be, and sometimes not.
ΣΩ. οἶσθα δὲ ὅτι οὐ μόνον σοί τε καὶ τοῖς ἄλλοις τοῖς πολιτικοῖς τοῦτο δοκεῖ τοτὲ μὲν εἶναι διδακτόν, τοτὲ δʼ οὔ, ἀλλὰ καὶ Θέογνιν τὸν ποιητὴν οἶσθʼ ὅτι ταὐτὰ ταῦτα λέγει;
SOC. But do you know that not only you and the other politicians think that this is sometimes teachable, and sometimes not, but do you know that the poet Theognis also says these very same things?
ΜΕΝ. ἐν ποίοις ἔπεσιν;
MEN. In which verses?
ΣΩ. ἐν τοῖς ἐλεγείοις, οὗ λέγει—
"
καὶ παρὰ τοῖσιν πῖνε καὶ ἔσθιε, καὶ μετὰ τοῖσιν
ἵζε, καὶ ἅνδανε τοῖς, ὧν μεγάλη δύναμις.
SOC. In his elegiacs, where he says— "And drink and eat with them, and sit with them, and please them who have great power.
ἐσθλῶν μὲν γὰρ ἄπʼ ἐσθλὰ διδάξεαι· ἢν δὲ κακοῖσιν
συμμίσγῃς, ἀπολεῖς καὶ τὸν ἐόντα νόον.
For from good men you will learn good things; but if with bad men ¦95e you mingle, you will lose even the mind you have.
"
οἶσθ᾽ ὅτι ἐν τούτοις μὲν ὡς διδακτοῦ οὔσης τῆς ἀρετῆς λέγει;
"Do you know that in these verses he speaks of virtue as being teachable?
ΜΕΝ. φαίνεταί γε.
MEN. It seems so, at least.