§512ΣΩ. λογίζεται οὖν ὅτι οὐκ, εἰ μέν τις μεγάλοις καὶ ἀνιάτοις νοσήμασιν κατὰ τὸ σῶμα συνεχόμενος μὴ ἀπεπνίγη, οὗτος μὲν ἄθλιός ἐστιν ὅτι οὐκ ἀπέθανεν, καὶ οὐδὲν ὑπʼ αὐτοῦ ὠφέληται· εἰ δέ τις ἄρα ἐν τῷ τοῦ σώματος τιμιωτέρῳ, τῇ ψυχῇ, πολλὰ νοσήματα ἔχει καὶ ἀνίατα, τούτῳ δὲ βιωτέον ἐστὶν καὶ τοῦτον ὀνήσει, ἄντε ἐκ θαλάττης ἄντε ἐκ δικαστηρίου ἐάντε ἄλλοθεν ὁποθενοῦν σώσῃ, ἀλλʼ οἶδεν ὅτι οὐκ ἄμεινόν ἐστιν ζῆν τῷ μοχθηρῷ ἀνθρώπῳ· κακῶς γὰρ ἀνάγκη ἐστὶν ζῆν.
SOCRATES: Therefore, he reasons that it is not the case that, if someone afflicted with great and incurable diseases of the body did not drown, this man is wretched because he did not die, and has received no benefit from him; but if, then, someone has many incurable diseases in that which is more precious than the body, namely the soul, that for this man life is worth living and that he will benefit him, whether he saves him from the sea or from a court of law or from anywhere else. Rather, he knows that it is not better for a wicked man to live, for he must of necessity live badly.
διὰ ταῦτα οὐ νόμος ἐστὶ σεμνύνεσθαι τὸν κυβερνήτην, καίπερ σῴζοντα ἡμᾶς, οὐδέ γε, ὦ θαυμάσιε, τὸν μηχανοποιόν, ὃς οὔτε στρατηγοῦ, μὴ ὅτι κυβερνήτου, οὔτε ἄλλου οὐδενὸς ἐλάττω ἐνίοτε δύναται σῴζειν·
For these reasons, it is not the custom for the pilot to put on airs, even though he saves us, nor indeed, my wonderful friend, for the engine-maker, who is sometimes able to save no less than a general, let alone a pilot, or anyone else; for sometimes he saves entire cities.
πόλεις γὰρ ἔστιν ὅτε ὅλας σῴζει. μή σοι δοκεῖ κατὰ τὸν δικανικὸν εἶναι;
Does he seem to you to be on a level with the forensic speaker?
καίτοι εἰ βούλοιτο λέγειν, ὦ Καλλίκλεις, ἅπερ ὑμεῖς, σεμνύνων τὸ πρᾶγμα, καταχώσειεν ἂν ὑμᾶς τοῖς λόγοις, λέγων καὶ παρακαλῶν ἐπὶ τὸ δεῖν γίγνεσθαι μηχανοποιούς, ὡς οὐδὲν τἆλλά ἐστιν· ἱκανὸς γὰρ αὐτῷ ὁ λόγος.
And yet, Callicles, if he wished to speak as you people do, magnifying his business, he would bury you with his words, arguing and urging that one must become an engine-maker, on the ground that all other things are nothing; for the argument would be sufficient for him.
ἀλλὰ σὺ οὐδὲν ἧττον αὐτοῦ καταφρονεῖς καὶ τῆς τέχνης τῆς ἐκείνου, καὶ ὡς ἐν ὀνείδει ἀποκαλέσαις ἂν μηχανοποιόν, καὶ τῷ ὑεῖ αὐτοῦ οὔτʼ ἂν δοῦναι θυγατέρα ἐθέλοις, οὔτʼ ἂν αὐτὸς λαβεῖν τὴν ἐκείνου.
But you nonetheless despise him and his art, and you would call him an "engine-maker" as an insult, and you would not be willing to give your daughter to his son, nor to take his daughter yourself.
καίτοι ἐξ ὧν τὰ σαυτοῦ ἐπαινεῖς, τίνι δικαίῳ λόγῳ τοῦ μηχανοποιοῦ καταφρονεῖς καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ὧν νυνδὴ ἔλεγον;
And yet, from the grounds on which you praise your own pursuits, with what just reasoning do you despise the engine-maker and the others whom I just mentioned?
οἶδʼ ὅτι φαίης ἂν βελτίων εἶναι καὶ ἐκ βελτιόνων.
I know that you would say you are better and of better descent.
τὸ δὲ βέλτιον εἰ μὴ ἔστιν ὃ ἐγὼ λέγω, ἀλλʼ αὐτὸ τοῦτʼ ἐστὶν ἀρετή, τὸ σῴζειν αὑτὸν καὶ τὰ ἑαυτοῦ ὄντα ὁποῖός τις ἔτυχεν, καταγέλαστός σοι ὁ ψόγος γίγνεται καὶ μηχανοποιοῦ καὶ ἰατροῦ καὶ τῶν ἄλλων τεχνῶν ὅσαι τοῦ σῴζειν ἕνεκα πεποίηνται.
But if "the better" is not what I say, but this very thing is virtue—to save oneself and one's possessions, whatever sort of person one happens to be—then your censure becomes ridiculous, both of the engine-maker and of the doctor, and of all the other arts which have been made for the sake of saving.
ἀλλʼ, ὦ μακάριε, ὅρα μὴ ἄλλο τι τὸ γενναῖον καὶ τὸ ἀγαθὸν ᾖ ἢ τὸ σῴζειν τε καὶ σῴζεσθαι.
But, my blessed friend, see whether the noble and the good are not something other than saving and being saved.
μὴ γὰρ τοῦτο μέν, τὸ ζῆν ὁποσονδὴ χρόνον, τόν γε ὡς ἀληθῶς ἄνδρα ἐατέον ἐστὶν καὶ οὐ φιλοψυχητέον, ἀλλὰ ἐπιτρέψαντα περὶ τούτων τῷ θεῷ καὶ πιστεύσαντα ταῖς γυναιξὶν ὅτι τὴν εἱμαρμένην οὐδʼ ἂν εἷς ἐκφύγοι, τὸ ἐπὶ τούτῳ σκεπτέον τίνʼ ἂν τρόπον τοῦτον ὃν μέλλοι χρόνον βιῶναι ὡς ἄριστα βιοίη, §513ΣΩ. ἆρα ἐξομοιῶν αὑτὸν τῇ πολιτείᾳ ταύτῃ ἐν ᾗ ἂν οἰκῇ, καὶ νῦν δὲ ἄρα δεῖ σὲ ὡς ὁμοιότατον γίγνεσθαι τῷ δήμῳ τῷ Ἀθηναίων, εἰ μέλλεις τούτῳ προσφιλὴς εἶναι καὶ μέγα δύνασθαι ἐν τῇ πόλει·
For indeed, as for this—living for however long a time—the man who is truly a man must let it go and must not be fond of life, but, having entrusted these things to the god and believed the women that no one could escape fate, he must consider next in what way he might live his remaining time as well as possible, SOCRATES: Whether by making oneself like the constitution in which one lives? And so now, indeed, you must become as like as possible to the Athenian people, if you are to be dear to them and to have great power in the city.
τοῦθʼ ὅρα εἰ σοὶ λυσιτελεῖ καὶ ἐμοί, ὅπως μή, ὦ δαιμόνιε, πεισόμεθα ὅπερ φασὶ τὰς τὴν σελήνην καθαιρούσας, τὰς Θετταλίδας· σὺν τοῖς φιλτάτοις ἡ αἵρεσις ἡμῖν ἔσται ταύτης τῆς δυνάμεως τῆς ἐν τῇ πόλει.
Consider whether this is profitable for you and for me, so that we may not, my strange friend, suffer what they say the Thessalian women who draw down the moon suffer; our choice of this power in the city will be at the cost of what is dearest to us.
εἰ δέ σοι οἴει ὁντινοῦν ἀνθρώπων παραδώσειν τέχνην τινὰ τοιαύτην, ἥτις σε ποιήσει μέγα δύνασθαι ἐν τῇ πόλει τῇδε ἀνόμοιον ὄντα τῇ πολιτείᾳ εἴτʼ ἐπὶ τὸ βέλτιον εἴτʼ ἐπὶ τὸ χεῖρον, ὡς ἐμοὶ δοκεῖ, οὐκ ὀρθῶς βουλεύῃ, ὦ Καλλίκλεις· οὐ γὰρ μιμητὴν δεῖ εἶναι ἀλλʼ αὐτοφυῶς ὅμοιον τούτοις, εἰ μέλλεις τι γνήσιον ἀπεργάζεσθαι εἰς φιλίαν τῷ Ἀθηναίων δήμῳ καὶ ναὶ μὰ Δία τῷ Πυριλάμπους γε πρός.
But if you think anyone among men will deliver to you some such art as will make you have great power in this city while being unlike the constitution, whether for the better or for the worse, in my opinion you are not advising yourself rightly, Callicles; for you must not be an imitator but by nature like them, if you are to achieve anything genuine in friendship with the Athenian people, and yes, by Zeus, and with the son of Pyrilampes as well.
ὅστις οὖν σε τούτοις ὁμοιότατον ἀπεργάσεται, οὗτός σε ποιήσει, ὡς ἐπιθυμεῖς πολιτικὸς εἶναι, πολιτικὸν καὶ ῥητορικόν· τῷ αὑτῶν γὰρ ἤθει λεγομένων τῶν λόγων ἕκαστοι χαίρουσι, τῷ δὲ ἀλλοτρίῳ ἄχθονται, εἰ μή τι σὺ ἄλλο λέγεις, ὦ φίλη κεφαλή.
Whoever, then, shall render you most like them, he will make you, as you desire to be a statesman, a statesman and a rhetorician; for each group rejoices in speeches spoken in their own character, but is vexed by an alien one, unless you say something else, my dear friend.
λέγομέν τι πρὸς ταῦτα, ὦ Καλλίκλεις;
Have we anything to say against this, Callicles?
ΚΑΛ. οὐκ οἶδʼ ὅντινά μοι τρόπον δοκεῖς εὖ λέγειν, ὦ Σώκρατες, πέπονθα δὲ τὸ τῶν πολλῶν πάθος· οὐ πάνυ σοι πείθομαι.
CALLICLES: I do not know how, Socrates, but you seem to me to speak well; yet I experience the path of the many: I am not quite persuaded by you.
ΣΩ. ὁ δήμου γὰρ ἔρως, ὦ Καλλίκλεις, ἐνὼν ἐν τῇ ψυχῇ τῇ σῇ ἀντιστατεῖ μοι· ἀλλʼ ἐὰν πολλάκις βέλτιον ταὐτὰ ταῦτα διασκοπώμεθα, πεισθήσῃ.
SOCRATES: For the love of the people, Callicles, being present in your soul, resists me; but if we should examine these very same things often and better, you will be persuaded.
ἀναμνήσθητι δʼ οὖν ὅτι δύʼ ἔφαμεν εἶναι τὰς παρασκευὰς ἐπὶ τὸ ἕκαστον θεραπεύειν, καὶ σῶμα καὶ ψυχήν, μίαν μὲν πρὸς ἡδονὴν ὁμιλεῖν, τὴν ἑτέραν δὲ πρὸς τὸ βέλτιστον, μὴ καταχαριζόμενον ἀλλὰ διαμαχόμενον.
But recall indeed that we said there are two ways of preparing to care for each thing, both body and soul: one is to associate with it for pleasure, and the other is for the best, not gratifying but fighting against it.
οὐ ταῦτα ἦν ἃ τότε ὡριζόμεθα;
Were these not the things we defined then?
ΚΑΛ. πάνυ γε.
CALLICLES: Quite so.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἡ μὲν ἑτέρα, ἡ πρὸς ἡδονήν, ἀγεννὴς καὶ οὐδὲν ἄλλο ἢ κολακεία τυγχάνει οὖσα· ἦ γάρ;
SOCRATES: Therefore, the one, that for pleasure, is ignoble and happens to be nothing other than flattery, doesn't it?
ΚΑΛ. ἔστω, εἰ βούλει, σοὶ οὕτως.
CALLICLES: Let it be so for you, if you wish.
ΣΩ. ἡ δέ γε ἑτέρα, ὅπως ὡς βέλτιστον ἔσται τοῦτο, εἴτε σῶμα τυγχάνει ὂν εἴτε ψυχή, ὃ θεραπεύομεν;
SOCRATES: But the other, surely, is that this, whether it happens to be body or soul which we care for, shall be as good as possible?
ΚΑΛ. πάνυ γε.
CALLICLES: Quite so.