§494ΣΩ. ὁ μὲν οὖν ἕτερος πληρωσάμενος μήτʼ ἐποχετεύοι μήτε τι φροντίζοι, ἀλλʼ ἕνεκα τούτων ἡσυχίαν ἔχοι·
SOCRATES: Well then, one of the two, having filled his jars, would no longer pour anything in or have any care, but as far as these are concerned, he would remain at rest.
τῷ δʼ ἑτέρῳ τὰ μὲν νάματα, ὥσπερ καὶ ἐκείνῳ, δυνατὰ μὲν πορίζεσθαι, χαλεπὰ δέ, τὰ δʼ ἀγγεῖα τετρημένα καὶ σαθρά, ἀναγκάζοιτο δʼ ἀεὶ καὶ νύκτα καὶ ἡμέραν πιμπλάναι αὐτά, ἢ τὰς ἐσχάτας λυποῖτο λύπας·
But for the other, although the inflows, just as for that first man, are possible to procure, though difficult, yet the vessels are perforated and decayed, and he would be compelled always, both night and day, to keep filling them, or else suffer the most extreme pains.
ἆρα τοιούτου ἑκατέρου ὄντος τοῦ βίου, λέγεις τὸν τοῦ ἀκολάστου εὐδαιμονέστερον εἶναι ἢ τὸν τοῦ κοσμίου;
If each of these two lives is such as this, do you say that the life of the licentious man is happier than that of the orderly man?
πείθω τί σε ταῦτα λέγων συγχωρῆσαι τὸν κόσμιον βίον τοῦ ἀκολάστου ἀμείνω εἶναι, ἢ οὐ πείθω;
Do I persuade you at all by saying these things to agree that the orderly life is better than the licentious one, or do I not?
ΚΑΛ. οὐ πείθεις, ὦ Σώκρατες.
CALLICLES: You do not persuade me, Socrates.
τῷ μὲν γὰρ πληρωσαμένῳ ἐκείνῳ οὐκέτʼ ἔστιν ἡδονὴ οὐδεμία, ἀλλὰ τοῦτʼ ἔστιν, ὃ νυνδὴ ἐγὼ ἔλεγον, τὸ ὥσπερ λίθον ζῆν, ἐπειδὰν πληρώσῃ, μήτε χαίροντα ἔτι μήτε λυπούμενον.
For that man who has filled his jars no longer has any pleasure, but this is what I was just saying: to live like a stone, once he has filled them, neither rejoicing any more nor suffering pain.
ἀλλʼ ἐν τούτῳ ἐστὶν τὸ ἡδέως ζῆν, ἐν τῷ ὡς πλεῖστον ἐπιρρεῖν.
Rather, living pleasantly consists in this: in having as much as possible flow in.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἀνάγκη γʼ, ἂν πολὺ ἐπιρρέῃ, πολὺ καὶ τὸ ἀπιὸν εἶναι, καὶ μεγάλʼ ἄττα τὰ τρήματα εἶναι ταῖς ἐκροαῖς;
SOCRATES: Then is it not necessary, if much flows in, that much also goes out, and that the holes for the outflows must be quite large?
ΚΑΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
CALLICLES: Very much so.
ΣΩ. χαραδριοῦ τινα αὖ σὺ βίον λέγεις, ἀλλʼ οὐ νεκροῦ οὐδὲ λίθου.
SOCRATES: Then you are speaking of the life of a stone-curlew, and not of a dead man or a stone.
καί μοι λέγε· τὸ τοιόνδε λέγεις οἷον πεινῆν καὶ πεινῶντα ἐσθίειν;
And tell me: do you mean something like being hungry and eating when hungry?
ΚΑΛ. ἔγωγε.
CALLICLES: Yes, I do.
ΣΩ. καὶ διψῆν γε καὶ διψῶντα πίνειν;
SOCRATES: And being thirsty and drinking when thirsty?
ΚΑΛ. λέγω, καὶ τὰς ἄλλας ἐπιθυμίας ἁπάσας ἔχοντα καὶ δυνάμενον πληροῦντα χαίροντα εὐδαιμόνως ζῆν.
CALLICLES: I say so, and having all other desires and being able to satisfy them, and so living happily in joy.
ΣΩ. εὖγε, ὦ βέλτιστε·
SOCRATES: Well done, my excellent friend!
διατέλει γὰρ ὥσπερ ἤρξω, καὶ ὅπως μὴ ἀπαισχυνῇ.
Carry on as you began, and mind you do not lose your courage through shame.
δεῖ δέ, ὡς ἔοικε, μηδʼ ἐμὲ ἀπαισχυνθῆναι.
And it seems that I too must not be ashamed.
καὶ πρῶτον μὲν εἰπὲ εἰ καὶ ψωρῶντα καὶ κνησιῶντα, ἀφθόνως ἔχοντα τοῦ κνῆσθαι, κνώμενον διατελοῦντα τὸν βίον εὐδαιμόνως ἔστι ζῆν.
First, then, tell me if a man who has the itch and wants to scratch, having plenty of opportunity to scratch, and spending his whole life scratching, can live happily?
ΚΑΛ. ὡς ἄτοπος εἶ, ὦ Σώκρατες, καὶ ἀτεχνῶς δημηγόρος.
CALLICLES: How strange you are, Socrates, and an absolute mob-orator!
ΣΩ. τοιγάρτοι, ὦ Καλλίκλεις, Πῶλον μὲν καὶ Γοργίαν καὶ ἐξέπληξα καὶ αἰσχύνεσθαι ἐποίησα, σὺ δὲ οὐ μὴ ἐκπλαγῇς οὐδὲ μὴ αἰσχυνθῇς· ἀνδρεῖος γὰρ εἶ.
SOCRATES: That, indeed, Callicles, is how I dismayed Polus and Gorgias and made them ashamed; but you will certainly not be dismayed or ashamed, for you are courageous.
ἀλλʼ ἀποκρίνου μόνον.
Just answer, then.
ΚΑΛ. φημὶ τοίνυν καὶ τὸν κνώμενον ἡδέως ἂν βιῶναι.
CALLICLES: Well then, I say that even the man who scratches would live pleasantly.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν εἴπερ ἡδέως, καὶ εὐδαιμόνως;
SOCRATES: And if pleasantly, then also happily?
ΚΑΛ. πάνυ γε.
CALLICLES: Certainly.
ΣΩ. πότερον εἰ τὴν κεφαλὴν μόνον κνησιῷ—ἢ ἔτι τί σε ἐρωτῶ;
SOCRATES: What if he only scratches his head—or do I need to ask you anything further?
ὅρα, ὦ Καλλίκλεις, τί ἀποκρινῇ, ἐάν τίς σε τὰ ἐχόμενα τούτοις ἐφεξῆς ἅπαντα ἐρωτᾷ.
See, Callicles, what you will answer if someone should ask you all the consequences of this, one after another.
καὶ τούτων τοιούτων ὄντων κεφάλαιον, ὁ τῶν κιναίδων βίος, οὗτος οὐ δεινὸς καὶ αἰσχρὸς καὶ ἄθλιος;
And as the crown of all such things, is not the life of catamites terrible, shameful, and miserable?
ἢ τούτους τολμήσεις λέγειν εὐδαίμονας εἶναι, ἐὰν ἀφθόνως ἔχωσιν ὧν δέονται;
Or will you dare to say that these are happy, if they have in abundance what they need?
ΚΑΛ. οὐκ αἰσχύνῃ εἰς τοιαῦτα ἄγων, ὦ Σώκρατες, τοὺς λόγους;
CALLICLES: Are you not ashamed, Socrates, to bring the argument to such things?
§495ΣΩ. ἦ γὰρ ἐγὼ ἄγω ἐνταῦθα, ὦ γενναῖε, ἢ ἐκεῖνος ὃς ἂν φῇ ἀνέδην οὕτω τοὺς χαίροντας, ὅπως ἂν χαίρωσιν, εὐδαίμονας εἶναι, καὶ μὴ διορίζηται τῶν ἡδονῶν ὁποῖαι ἀγαθαὶ καὶ κακαί;
SOCRATES: Is it I who bring it there, my noble friend, or he who asserts so unconditionally that those who rejoice, however they may rejoice, are happy, and makes no distinction between what pleasures are good and what are bad?
ἀλλʼ ἔτι καὶ νῦν λέγε πότερον φῂς εἶναι τὸ αὐτὸ ἡδὺ καὶ ἀγαθόν, ἢ εἶναί τι τῶν ἡδέων ὃ οὐκ ἔστιν ἀγαθόν;
But tell me even now, do you say that the pleasant and the good are the same, or that there is something among pleasant things which is not good?
ΚΑΛ. ἵνα δή μοι μὴ ἀνομολογούμενος ᾖ ὁ λόγος, ἐὰν ἕτερον φήσω εἶναι, τὸ αὐτό φημι εἶναι.
CALLICLES: In order that my argument may not be inconsistent with itself, if I should say they are different, I say they are the same.
ΣΩ. διαφθείρεις, ὦ Καλλίκλεις, τοὺς πρώτους λόγους, καὶ οὐκ ἂν ἔτι μετʼ ἐμοῦ ἱκανῶς τὰ ὄντα ἐξετάζοις, εἴπερ παρὰ τὰ δοκοῦντα σαυτῷ ἐρεῖς.
SOCRATES: You are destroying your first statements, Callicles, and you would no longer be adequately examining the things that are with me, if you are going to speak contrary to what you yourself think.
ΚΑΛ. καὶ γὰρ σύ, ὦ Σώκρατες.
CALLICLES: For you do the same, Socrates.
ΣΩ. οὐ τοίνυν ὀρθῶς ποιῶ οὔτʼ ἐγώ, εἴπερ ποιῶ τοῦτο, οὔτε σύ.
SOCRATES: Then neither do I act correctly, if indeed I do this, nor do you.
ἀλλʼ, ὦ μακάριε, ἄθρει μὴ οὐ τοῦτο ᾖ τὸ ἀγαθόν, τὸ πάντως χαίρειν· ταῦτά τε γὰρ τὰ νυνδὴ αἰνιχθέντα πολλὰ καὶ αἰσχρὰ φαίνεται συμβαίνοντα, εἰ τοῦτο οὕτως ἔχει, καὶ ἄλλα πολλά.
But, my dear friend, see whether the good may not be something other than rejoicing in every way; for both these things just now hinted at, and many other shameful things, clearly appear to follow, if this is so.
ΚΑΛ. ὡς σύ γε οἴει, ὦ Σώκρατες.
CALLICLES: That is as you think, Socrates.
ΣΩ. σὺ δὲ τῷ ὄντι, ὦ Καλλίκλεις, ταῦτα ἰσχυρίζῃ;
SOCRATES: But do you really, Callicles, maintain this?
ΚΑΛ. ἔγωγε.
CALLICLES: I do.
ΣΩ. ἐπιχειρῶμεν ἄρα τῷ λόγῳ ὡς σοῦ σπουδάζοντος;
SOCRATES: Shall we then apply ourselves to the argument, on the assumption that you are in earnest?
ΚΑΛ. πάνυ γε σφόδρα.
CALLICLES: Most certainly.
ΣΩ. ἴθι δή μοι, ἐπειδὴ οὕτω δοκεῖ, διελοῦ τάδε· ἐπιστήμην που καλεῖς τι; ΚΑΛ. ἔγωγε. ΣΩ. οὐ καὶ ἀνδρείαν νυνδὴ ἔλεγές τινα εἶναι μετὰ ἐπιστήμης; ΚΑΛ. ἔλεγον γάρ. ΣΩ. ἄλλο τι οὖν ὡς ἕτερον τὴν ἀνδρείαν τῆς ἐπιστήμης δύο ταῦτα ἔλεγες; ΚΑΛ. σφόδρα γε. ΣΩ. τί δέ; ἡδονὴν καὶ ἐπιστήμην ταὐτὸν ἢ ἕτερον; ΚΑΛ. ἕτερον δήπου, ὦ σοφώτατε σύ. ΣΩ. ἦ καὶ ἀνδρείαν ἑτέραν ἡδονῆς; ΚΑΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ; ΣΩ. φέρε δὴ ὅπως μεμνησόμεθα ταῦτα, ὅτι Καλλικλῆς ἔφη Ἀχαρνεὺς ἡδὺ μὲν καὶ ἀγαθὸν ταὐτὸν εἶναι, ἐπιστήμην δὲ καὶ ἀνδρείαν καὶ ἀλλήλων καὶ τοῦ ἀγαθοῦ ἕτερον. ΚΑΛ. Σωκράτης δέ γε ἡμῖν ὁ Ἀλωπεκῆθεν οὐχ ὁμολογεῖ ταῦτα. ἢ ὁμολογεῖ; ΣΩ. οὐχ ὁμολογεῖ· οἶμαι δέ γε οὐδὲ Καλλικλῆς, ὅταν αὐτὸς αὑτὸν θεάσηται ὀρθῶς. εἰπὲ γάρ μοι, τοὺς εὖ πράττοντας τοῖς κακῶς πράττουσιν οὐ τοὐναντίον ἡγῇ πάθος πεπονθέναι; ΚΑΛ. ἔγωγε. ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν, εἴπερ ἐναντία ἐστὶν ταῦτα ἀλλήλοις, ἀνάγκη περὶ αὐτῶν ἔχειν ὥσπερ περὶ ὑγιείας ἔχει καὶ νόσου; οὐ γὰρ ἅμα δήπου ὑγιαίνει τε καὶ νοσεῖ ὁ ἄνθρωπος, οὐδὲ ἅμα ἀπαλλάττεται ὑγιείας τε καὶ νόσου. ΚΑΛ. πῶς λέγεις;
SOCRATES: Come then, since you think so, distinguish this for me: do you call something