§318ΣΩ. καὶ ἐγὼ εἶπον ὅτι ἡ αὐτή μοι ἀρχή ἐστιν, ὦ Πρωταγόρα, ἥπερ ἄρτι, περὶ ὧν ἀφικόμην.
Socrates: And I said: "My starting-point, Protagoras, is the same as just now, regarding the purpose for which I came.
Ἱπποκράτης γὰρ ὅδε τυγχάνει ἐν ἐπιθυμίᾳ ὢν τῆς σῆς συνουσίας· ὅτι οὖν αὐτῷ ἀποβήσεται, ἐάν σοι συνῇ, ἡδέως ἄν φησι πυθέσθαι.
For this Hippocrates here happens to be in desire of your association; and as to what will result for him if he associates with you, he says he would gladly learn.
τοσοῦτος ὅ γε ἡμέτερος λόγος. ὑπολαβὼν οὖν ὁ Πρωταγόρας εἶπεν· ὦ νεανίσκε, ἔσται τοίνυν σοι, ἐὰν ἐμοὶ συνῇς, ᾗ ἂν ἡμέρᾳ ἐμοὶ συγγένῃ, ἀπιέναι οἴκαδε βελτίονι γεγονότι, καὶ ἐν τῇ ὑστεραίᾳ ταὐτὰ ταῦτα· καὶ ἑκάστης ἡμέρας ἀεὶ ἐπὶ τὸ βέλτιον ἐπιδιδόναι. καὶ ἐγὼ ἀκούσας εἶπον· ὦ Πρωταγόρα, τοῦτο μὲν οὐδὲν θαυμαστὸν λέγεις, ἀλλὰ εἰκός, ἐπεὶ κἂν σύ, καίπερ τηλικοῦτος ὢν καὶ οὕτως σοφός, εἴ τίς σε διδάξειεν ὃ μὴ τυγχάνοις ἐπιστάμενος, βελτίων ἂν γένοιο.
This is the sum of our speech." Taking up the word, Protagoras then said: "Young man, if you associate with me, on the day you associate with me you will go home having become better, and on the next day the very same thing will happen; and on each day you will always improve toward what is better." And when I heard this, I said: "Protagoras, what you say is not at all surprising, but natural, since even you yourself, though you are of such an age and so wise, if someone were to teach you what you did not happen to know, would become better.
ἀλλὰ μὴ οὕτως, ἀλλʼ ὥσπερ ἂν εἰ αὐτίκα μάλα μεταβαλὼν τὴν ἐπιθυμίαν Ἱπποκράτης ὅδε ἐπιθυμήσειεν τῆς συνουσίας τούτου τοῦ νεανίσκου τοῦ νῦν νεωστὶ ἐπιδημοῦντος, Ζευξίππου τοῦ Ἡρακλεώτου, καὶ ἀφικόμενος παρʼ αὐτόν, ὥσπερ παρὰ σὲ νῦν, ἀκούσειεν αὐτοῦ ταὐτὰ ταῦτα ἅπερ σοῦ, ὅτι ἑκάστης ἡμέρας συνὼν αὐτῷ βελτίων ἔσται καὶ ἐπιδώσει, εἰ αὐτὸν ἐπανέροιτο· τί δὴ φῂς βελτίω ἔσεσθαι καὶ εἰς τί ἐπιδώσειν; εἴποι ἂν αὐτῷ ὁ Ζεύξιππος ὅτι πρὸς γραφικήν· κἂν εἰ Ὀρθαγόρᾳ τῷ Θηβαίῳ συγγενόμενος, ἀκούσας ἐκείνου ταὐτὰ ταῦτα ἅπερ σοῦ, ἐπανέροιτο αὐτὸν εἰς ὅτι βελτίων καθʼ ἡμέραν ἔσται συγγιγνόμενος ἐκείνῳ, εἴποι ἂν ὅτι εἰς αὔλησιν· οὕτω δὴ καὶ σὺ εἰπὲ τῷ νεανίσκῳ καὶ ἐμοὶ ὑπὲρ τούτου ἐρωτῶντι, Ἱπποκράτης ὅδε Πρωταγόρᾳ συγγενόμενος, ᾗ ἂν αὐτῷ ἡμέρᾳ συγγένηται, βελτίων ἄπεισι γενόμενος καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ἡμερῶν ἑκάστης οὕτως ἐπιδώσει εἰς τί, ὦ Πρωταγόρα, καὶ περὶ τοῦ; καὶ ὁ Πρωταγόρας ἐμοῦ ταῦτα ἀκούσας,
σύ τε καλῶς ἐρωτᾷς,
ἔφη,
ὦ Σώκρατες, καὶ ἐγὼ τοῖς καλῶς ἐρωτῶσι χαίρω ἀποκρινόμενος.
But do not put it that way, but rather as if, for example, this Hippocrates here, having immediately changed his desire, should desire the association of this young man who has recently arrived in town, Zeuxippus of Heraclea, and going to him, as he has now come to you, should hear from him these same things that he heard from you, that by associating with him each day he will be better and will improve, and if he were to ask him further: 'In what indeed do you say I shall be better, and in what shall I improve?' Zeuxippus would say to him: 'In painting.' And if, associating with Orthagoras the Theban, and having heard from him the same things as from you, he were to ask him further in what he would become better day by day by associating with him, he would say: 'In flute-playing.' In this way indeed, you too tell this young man and me who am asking on his behalf: if this Hippocrates here associates with Protagoras, on the day he associates with him, in what will he go away having become better, and on each of the other days how will he improve in what, Protagoras, and concerning what?" And Protagoras, having heard this from me, said: "You ask well, Socrates, and I rejoice in answering those who ask well.
Ἱπποκράτης γὰρ παρʼ ἐμὲ ἀφικόμενος οὐ πείσεται ἅπερ ἂν ἔπαθεν ἄλλῳ τῳ συγγενόμενος τῶν σοφιστῶν.
For Hippocrates, if he comes to me, will not suffer what he would have suffered if he associated with any other of the sophists.
οἱ μὲν γὰρ ἄλλοι λωβῶνται τοὺς νέους· τὰς γὰρ τέχνας αὐτοὺς πεφευγότας ἄκοντας πάλιν αὖ ἄγοντες ἐμβάλλουσιν εἰς τέχνας, λογισμούς τε καὶ ἀστρονομίαν καὶ γεωμετρίαν καὶ μουσικὴν διδάσκοντες
—καὶ ἅμα εἰς τὸν Ἱππίαν ἀπέβλεψεν—
παρὰ δʼ ἐμὲ ἀφικόμενος μαθήσεται οὐ περὶ ἄλλου του ἢ περὶ οὗ ἥκει.
For the others abuse the young; for when they have escaped the arts, they take them against their will and plunge them back into the arts, teaching them calculation, astronomy, geometry, and music" —and at the same time he looked at Hippias— "but if he comes to me, he will learn about nothing else than that for which he came.
τὸ δὲ μάθημά ἐστιν εὐβουλία περὶ τῶν οἰκείων, ὅπως ἂν ἄριστα τὴν αὑτοῦ οἰκίαν διοικοῖ, καὶ περὶ τῶν τῆς πόλεως, ὅπως τὰ τῆς πόλεως δυνατώτατος ἂν εἴη καὶ πράττειν καὶ λέγειν. §319ΣΩ. ἆρα, ἔφην ἐγώ, ἕπομαί σου τῷ λόγῳ;
And this study is good judgment concerning personal affairs, how he may best manage his own household, and concerning the affairs of the city, how he may be most capable both in acting and in speaking in the affairs of the city." Socrates: "Am I following your argument?" I said.
δοκεῖς γάρ μοι λέγειν τὴν πολιτικὴν τέχνην καὶ ὑπισχνεῖσθαι ποιεῖν ἄνδρας ἀγαθοὺς πολίτας. αὐτὸ μὲν οὖν τοῦτό ἐστιν,
ἔφη,
ὦ Σώκρατες, τὸ ἐπάγγελμα ὃ ἐπαγγέλλομαι. ἦ καλόν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, τέχνημα ἄρα κέκτησαι, εἴπερ κέκτησαι· οὐ γάρ τι ἄλλο πρός γε σὲ εἰρήσεται ἢ ἅπερ νοῶ.
"For you seem to me to speak of the political art, and to promise to make men good citizens." "That is indeed," he said, "Socrates, the very profession that I profess." "An excellent art indeed, then," I said, "you possess, if indeed you possess it; for nothing else will be said to you than what I think.
ἐγὼ γὰρ τοῦτο, ὦ Πρωταγόρα, οὐκ ᾤμην διδακτὸν εἶναι, σοὶ δὲ λέγοντι οὐκ ἔχω ὅπως ἀπιστῶ.
For I, Protagoras, did not think this was teachable, but when you say so, I do not know how to disbelieve.
ὅθεν δὲ αὐτὸ ἡγοῦμαι οὐ διδακτὸν εἶναι μηδʼ ὑπʼ ἀνθρώπων παρασκευαστὸν ἀνθρώποις, δίκαιός εἰμι εἰπεῖν.
But why I think it is not teachable, nor providable by men for men, it is right for me to state.
ἐγὼ γὰρ Ἀθηναίους, ὥσπερ καὶ οἱ ἄλλοι Ἕλληνες, φημὶ σοφοὺς εἶναι.
For I say that the Athenians, like the other Greeks, are wise.
ὁρῶ οὖν, ὅταν συλλεγῶμεν εἰς τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, ἐπειδὰν μὲν περὶ οἰκοδομίας τι δέῃ πρᾶξαι τὴν πόλιν, τοὺς οἰκοδόμους μεταπεμπομένους συμβούλους περὶ τῶν οἰκοδομημάτων, ὅταν δὲ περὶ ναυπηγίας, τοὺς ναυπηγούς, καὶ τἆλλα πάντα οὕτως, ὅσα ἡγοῦνται μαθητά τε καὶ διδακτὰ εἶναι·
I see then, when we gather in the assembly, whenever the city needs to do something concerning building, they send for the builders as advisers concerning the buildings, and when concerning shipbuilding, the shipbuilders, and all other things likewise which they think are learnable and teachable.
ἐὰν δέ τις ἄλλος ἐπιχειρῇ αὐτοῖς συμβουλεύειν ὃν ἐκεῖνοι μὴ οἴονται δημιουργὸν εἶναι, κἂν πάνυ καλὸς ᾖ καὶ πλούσιος καὶ τῶν γενναίων, οὐδέν τι μᾶλλον ἀποδέχονται, ἀλλὰ καταγελῶσι καὶ θορυβοῦσιν, ἕως ἂν ἢ αὐτὸς ἀποστῇ ὁ ἐπιχειρῶν λέγειν καταθορυβηθείς, ἢ οἱ τοξόται αὐτὸν ἀφελκύσωσιν ἢ ἐξάρωνται κελευόντων τῶν πρυτάνεων. περὶ μὲν οὖν ὧν οἴονται ἐν τέχνῃ εἶναι, οὕτω διαπράττονται·
But if anyone else attempts to advise them whom they do not think to be a craftsman, even if he is very beautiful and rich and of noble birth, they accept him none the more, but mock and make an uproar, until either the one attempting to speak withdraws because of the uproar, or the archers drag him away or remove him at the command of the prytaneis.
ἐπειδὰν δέ τι περὶ τῶν τῆς πόλεως διοικήσεως δέῃ βουλεύσασθαι, συμβουλεύει αὐτοῖς ἀνιστάμενος περὶ τούτων ὁμοίως μὲν τέκτων, ὁμοίως δὲ χαλκεὺς σκυτοτόμος, ἔμπορος ναύκληρος, πλούσιος πένης, γενναῖος ἀγεννής, καὶ τούτοις οὐδεὶς τοῦτο ἐπιπλήττει ὥσπερ τοῖς πρότερον, ὅτι οὐδαμόθεν μαθών, οὐδὲ ὄντος διδασκάλου οὐδενὸς αὐτῷ, ἔπειτα συμβουλεύειν ἐπιχειρεῖ· δῆλον γὰρ ὅτι οὐχ ἡγοῦνται διδακτὸν εἶναι.
Concerning those things which they think are in the domain of art, they manage in this way; but whenever there is need to deliberate about some matter concerning the administration of the city, anyone rises up and advises them on these things: alike a carpenter, a blacksmith, a shoemaker, a merchant, a shipowner, rich or poor, noble or ignoble, and no one reproaches them for this as they did the former ones, on the ground that without having learned from anywhere, and without there being any teacher for him, he then attempts to advise; for it is clear that they do not think it is teachable.
μὴ τοίνυν ὅτι τὸ κοινὸν τῆς πόλεως οὕτως ἔχει, ἀλλὰ ἰδίᾳ ἡμῖν οἱ σοφώτατοι καὶ ἄριστοι τῶν πολιτῶν ταύτην τὴν ἀρετὴν ἣν ἔχουσιν οὐχ οἷοί τε ἄλλοις παραδιδόναι·
Now, not only is it thus with the common affairs of the city, but in private, the wisest and best of our citizens are unable to transmit to others this virtue which they possess..."