Humanitext Reader

Plato · Laches §182-183

Dispute between Nicias and Laches on Fighting in Armor

Passage 3 of 16 · Greek

Summary

Nicias praises the art of fighting in armor, arguing that it improves the youth's physical condition, proves useful in both formation and individual combat, and leads to the art of generalship. In response, Laches expresses deep skepticism, pointing out that the Spartans, who are most devoted to war, do not practice it, and sharing an anecdotal failure of Stesilaus to show that its teachers are ineffective in actual combat.

§182ΝΙ. καὶ γὰρ τὸ μὴ ἄλλοθι διατρίβειν, ἐν οἷς δὴ φιλοῦσιν οἱ νέοι τὰς διατριβὰς ποιεῖσθαι ὅταν σχολὴν ἄγωσιν, ἀλλʼ ἐν τούτῳ, εὖ ἔχει, ὅθεν καὶ τὸ σῶμα βέλτιον ἴσχειν ἀνάγκη—οὐδενὸς γὰρ τῶν γυμνασίων φαυλότερον οὐδʼ ἐλάττω πόνον ἔχει—καὶ ἅμα προσήκει μάλιστʼ ἐλευθέρῳ τοῦτό τε τὸ γυμνάσιον καὶ ἡ ἱππική·
Nicias: For indeed, spending time in this study, rather than in the other places where the young are accustomed to spend their leisure, is a good thing, from which it is also necessary that the body should be in better condition—for it is inferior to none of the gymnastic exercises, nor does it involve less labor—and at the same time this exercise and horsemanship are most fitting for a free man.
οὗ γὰρ ἀγῶνος ἀθληταί ἐσμεν καὶ ἐν οἷς ἡμῖν ὁ ἀγὼν πρόκειται, μόνοι οὗτοι γυμνάζονται οἱ ἐν τούτοις τοῖς περὶ τὸν πόλεμον ὀργάνοις γυμναζόμενοι.
For in the contest of which we are competitors, and in those things in which our contest lies, only those who exercise themselves in these instruments of war are performing the exercise.
ἔπειτα ὀνήσει μέν τι τοῦτο τὸ μάθημα καὶ ἐν τῇ μάχῃ αὐτῇ, ὅταν ἐν τάξει δέῃ μάχεσθαι μετὰ πολλῶν ἄλλων· μέγιστον μέντοι αὐτοῦ ὄφελος, ὅταν λυθῶσιν αἱ τάξεις καὶ ἤδη τι δέῃ μόνον πρὸς μόνον ἢ διώκοντα ἀμυνομένῳ τινὶ ἐπιθέσθαι ἢ καὶ ἐν φυγῇ ἐπιτιθεμένου ἄλλου ἀμύνασθαι αὐτόν·
Furthermore, this study will be of some benefit in the battle itself, when it is necessary to fight in formation with many others; but its greatest use is when the formations are broken, and it is necessary to encounter someone one-on-one, either while pursuing to attack someone who is defending himself, or while retreating to defend oneself against another who is attacking.
οὔτʼ ἂν ὑπό γε ἑνὸς εἷς ὁ τοῦτʼ ἐπιστάμενος οὐδὲν ἂν πάθοι, ἴσως δʼ οὐδὲ ὑπὸ πλειόνων, ἀλλὰ πανταχῇ ἂν ταύτῃ πλεονεκτοῖ.
The man who knows this would suffer nothing at the hands of one opponent, nor perhaps even of several, but would have the advantage in this way everywhere.
ἔτι δὲ καὶ εἰς ἄλλου καλοῦ μαθήματος ἐπιθυμίαν παρακαλεῖ τὸ τοιοῦτον· πᾶς γὰρ ἂν μαθὼν ἐν ὅπλοις μάχεσθαι ἐπιθυμήσειε καὶ τοῦ ἑξῆς μαθήματος τοῦ περὶ τὰς τάξεις, καὶ ταῦτα λαβὼν καὶ φιλοτιμηθεὶς ἐν αὐτοῖς ἐπὶ πᾶν ἂν τὸ περὶ τὰς στρατηγίας ὁρμήσειε·
And further, such a thing encourages the desire for another noble study; for everyone who has learned to fight in armor would desire the study that comes next, that of tactics, and having acquired these and gained honor in them, he would press on to the whole business of generalship.
καὶ ἤδη δῆλον ὅτι τὰ τούτων ἐχόμενα καὶ μαθήματα πάντα καὶ ἐπιτηδεύματα καὶ καλὰ καὶ πολλοῦ ἄξια ἀνδρὶ μαθεῖν τε καὶ ἐπιτηδεῦσαι, ὧν καθηγήσαιτʼ ἂν τοῦτο τὸ μάθημα.
And it is already clear that all the studies and pursuits connected with these are both noble and of great value for a man to learn and practice, of which this study would be the leader.
προσθήσομεν δʼ αὐτῷ οὐ σμικρὰν προσθήκην, ὅτι πάντα ἄνδρα ἐν πολέμῳ καὶ θαρραλεώτερον καὶ ἀνδρειότερον ἂν ποιήσειεν αὐτὸν αὑτοῦ οὐκ ὀλίγῳ αὕτη ἡ ἐπιστήμη.
And we shall add to it no small addition, namely, that this knowledge would make every man in war both bolder and braver than himself by no small amount.
μὴ ἀτιμάσωμεν δὲ εἰπεῖν, εἰ καί τῳ σμικρότερον δοκεῖ εἶναι, ὅτι καὶ εὐσχημονέστερον ἐνταῦθα οὗ χρὴ τὸν ἄνδρα εὐσχημονέστερον φαίνεσθαι, οὗ ἅμα καὶ δεινότερος τοῖς ἐχθροῖς φανεῖται διὰ τὴν εὐσχημοσύνην.
Let us not disdain to say, even if it seems a smaller thing to some, that it also makes a man appear more graceful where he ought to appear more graceful, where at the same time he will appear more formidable to the enemy because of his gracefulness.
ἐμοὶ μὲν οὖν, ὦ Λυσίμαχε, ὥσπερ λέγω, δοκεῖ τε χρῆναι διδάσκειν τοὺς νεανίσκους ταῦτα καὶ διʼ ἃ δοκεῖ εἴρηκα· Λάχητος δʼ, εἴ τι παρὰ ταῦτα λέγει, κἂν αὐτὸς ἡδέως ἀκούσαιμι.
To me, therefore, Lysimachus, as I say, it seems necessary to teach these things to the youths, and I have stated my reasons; but if Laches has anything to say contrary to this, I would gladly hear it myself.
ΛΑ. ἀλλʼ ἔστι μέν, ὦ Νικία, χαλεπὸν λέγειν περὶ ὁτουοῦν μαθήματος ὡς οὐ χρὴ μανθάνειν· πάντα γὰρ ἐπίστασθαι ἀγαθὸν δοκεῖ εἶναι.
Laches: Well, Nicias, it is indeed difficult to say of any study whatsoever that one ought not to learn it; for to know all things seems to be a good thing.
καὶ δὴ καὶ τὸ ὁπλιτικὸν τοῦτο, εἰ μέν ἐστιν μάθημα, ὅπερ φασὶν οἱ διδάσκοντες, καὶ οἷον Νικίας λέγει, χρὴ αὐτὸ μανθάνειν· εἰ δʼ ἔστιν μὲν μὴ μάθημα, ἀλλʼ ἐξαπατῶσιν οἱ ὑπισχνούμενοι, ἢ μάθημα μὲν τυγχάνει ὄν, μὴ μέντοι πάνυ σπουδαῖον, τί καὶ δέοι ἂν αὐτὸ μανθάνειν;
And indeed, this art of fighting in armor, if it is a study, as those who teach it say and as Nicias describes it, one ought to learn it; but if it is not a study, but those who promise it are deceiving, or if it happens to be a study indeed, but not a very serious one, why should one even need to learn it?
§183ΛΑ. λέγω δὲ ταῦτα περὶ αὐτοῦ εἰς τάδε ἀποβλέψας, ὅτι οἶμαι ἐγὼ τοῦτο, εἰ τὶ ἦν, οὐκ ἂν λεληθέναι Λακεδαιμονίους, οἷς οὐδὲν ἄλλο μέλει ἐν τῷ βίῳ ἢ τοῦτο ζητεῖν καὶ ἐπιτηδεύειν, ὅτι ἂν μαθόντες καὶ ἐπιτηδεύσαντες πλεονεκτοῖεν τῶν ἄλλων περὶ τὸν πόλεμον.
Laches: And I say these things about it looking at this: because I think that this, if it were anything, would not have escaped the notice of the Lacedaemonians, who care for nothing else in life than to seek and practice whatever, if learned and practiced, would give them an advantage over others in war.
εἰ δʼ ἐκείνους λέληθεν, ἀλλʼ οὐ τούτους γε τοὺς διδασκάλους αὐτοῦ λέληθεν αὐτὸ τοῦτο, ὅτι ἐκεῖνοι μάλιστα τῶν Ἑλλήνων σπουδάζουσιν ἐπὶ τοῖς τοιούτοις καὶ ὅτι παρʼ ἐκείνοις ἄν τις τιμηθεὶς εἰς ταῦτα καὶ παρὰ τῶν ἄλλων πλεῖστʼ ἂν ἐργάζοιτο χρήματα, ὥσπερ γε καὶ τραγῳδίας ποιητὴς παρʼ ἡμῖν τιμηθείς.
And if it escaped them, it certainly did not escape these teachers of it that the Lacedaemonians of all the Greeks are most serious about such things, and that anyone who was honored among them for these things would make the most money from others as well, just as a tragic poet does who is honored among us.
τοιγάρτοι ὃς ἂν οἴηται τραγῳδίαν καλῶς ποιεῖν, οὐκ ἔξωθεν κύκλῳ περὶ τὴν Ἀττικὴν κατὰ τὰς ἄλλας πόλεις ἐπιδεικνύμενος περιέρχεται, ἀλλʼ εὐθὺς δεῦρο φέρεται καὶ τοῖσδʼ ἐπιδείκνυσιν εἰκότως·
Therefore, whoever thinks he composes tragedy well does not go about outside of Attica, exhibiting himself in a circle in the other cities, but hastens straight here and exhibits to us, as is reasonable.
τοὺς δὲ ἐν ὅπλοις μαχομένους ἐγὼ τούτους ὁρῶ τὴν μὲν Λακεδαίμονα ἡγουμένους εἶναι ἄβατον ἱερὸν καὶ οὐδὲ ἄκρῳ ποδὶ ἐπιβαίνοντας, κύκλῳ δὲ περιιόντας αὐτὴν καὶ πᾶσι μᾶλλον ἐπιδεικνυμένους, καὶ μάλιστα τούτοις οἳ κἂν αὐτοὶ ὁμολογήσειαν πολλοὺς σφῶν προτέρους εἶναι πρὸς τὰ τοῦ πολέμου.
But these men who fight in armor, I see them regarding Lacedaemon as an inaccessible sanctuary and not even setting a foot on it, but going round it in a circle and exhibiting themselves to all others instead, and especially to those who would themselves admit that many of their predecessors are superior to them in matters of war.
ἔπειτα, ὦ Λυσίμαχε, οὐ πάνυ ὀλίγοις ἐγὼ τούτων παραγέγονα ἐν αὐτῷ τῷ ἔργῳ, καὶ ὁρῶ οἷοί εἰσιν. ἔξεστι δὲ καὶ αὐτόθεν ἡμῖν σκέψασθαι.
Furthermore, Lysimachus, I have been present with not a few of these men in actual action, and I see what sort of men they are.
ὥσπερ γὰρ ἐπίτηδες οὐδεὶς πώποτʼ εὐδόκιμος γέγονεν ἐν τῷ πολέμῳ ἀνὴρ τῶν τὰ ὁπλιτικὰ ἐπιτηδευσάντων. καίτοι εἴς γε τἆλλα πάντα ἐκ τούτων οἱ ὀνομαστοὶ γίγνονται, ἐκ τῶν ἐπιτηδευσάντων ἕκαστα·
And we can observe it from this very fact; for, as if by design, no man among those who have practiced the art of fighting in armor has ever become distinguished in war.
οὗτοι δʼ, ὡς ἔοικε, παρὰ τοὺς ἄλλους οὕτω σφόδρα εἰς τοῦτο δεδυστυχήκασιν.
Yet in all other fields, the famous men come from those who have practiced each of them; but these men, as it seems, have been so extremely unfortunate in this compared to the rest.
ἐπεὶ καὶ τοῦτον τὸν Στησίλεων, ὃν ὑμεῖς μετʼ ἐμοῦ ἐν τοσούτῳ ὄχλῳ ἐθεάσασθε ἐπιδεικνύμενον καὶ τὰ μεγάλα περὶ αὑτοῦ λέγοντα ἃ ἔλεγεν, ἑτέρωθι ἐγὼ κάλλιον ἐθεασάμην ἐν τῇ ἀληθείᾳ ὡς ἀληθῶς ἐπιδεικνύμενον οὐχ ἑκόντα.
For even this Stesilaus, whom you watched with me in that great crowd exhibiting himself and speaking those grand words about himself, I watched elsewhere more beautifully exhibiting himself in truth, truly against his will.
προσβαλούσης γὰρ τῆς νεὼς ἐφʼ ᾗ ἐπεβάτευεν πρὸς ὁλκάδα τινά, ἐμάχετο ἔχων δορυδρέπανον, διαφέρον δὴ ὅπλον ἅτε καὶ αὐτὸς τῶν ἄλλων διαφέρων.
For when the ship on which he was serving as a marine charged a merchant vessel, he was fighting with a scythe-spear, a weapon as distinguished as he himself was distinguished from the rest.
τὰ μὲν οὖν ἄλλα οὐκ ἄξια λέγειν περὶ τἀνδρός, τὸ δὲ σόφισμα τὸ τοῦ δρεπάνου τοῦ πρὸς τῇ λόγχῃ οἷον ἀπέβη.
Now, the other details of the man are not worth telling, but the device of the scythe on the spear, and how it turned out.
μαχομένου γὰρ αὐτοῦ ἐνέσχετό που ἐν τοῖς τῆς νεὼς σκεύεσιν καὶ ἀντελάβετο·
For while he was fighting, it became entangled somewhere in the ship's rigging and held fast.
εἷλκεν οὖν ὁ Στησίλεως βουλόμενος ἀπολῦσαι, καὶ οὐχ οἷός τʼ ἦν, ἡ δὲ ναῦς τὴν ναῦν παρῄει.
So Stesilaus pulled, wishing to disengage it, but was unable to, and the ship was passing the other ship.

Notes

  1. 182τὸ μὴ ἄλλοθι διατρίβειν ... εὖ ἔχει — The subject is the articular infinitive phrase τὸ μὴ ἄλλοθι διατρίβειν ('not spending time elsewhere'), which depends on the intransitive/impersonal predicate εὖ ἔχει ('it is well', 'it is good'). The subsequent ὅθεν... clause describes the natural consequence arising from this state.
  2. 182bἀμυνομένῳ τινὶ ἐπιθέσθαι ἢ καὶ ἐν φυγῇ ἐπιτιθεμένου ἄλλου ἀμύνασθαι αὐτόν — In the first half, the dative participle ἀμυνομένῳ τινί ('someone defending himself') serves as the dative object of the infinitive ἐπιθέσθαι ('to attack'). In the second half, the genitive absolute construction ἐπιτιθεμένου ἄλλου ('when another attacks') acts adverbially (temporal) modifying the infinitive ἀμύνασθαι ('to defend'). The accusative pronoun αὐτόν is the subject of this second infinitive, referring back to the trained man.
  3. 182cποιήσειεν αὐτὸν αὑτοῦ οὐκ ὀλίγῳ — The pronoun αὐτόν ('him') is the accusative object of ποιήσειεν. The reflexive pronoun αὑτοῦ ('than himself') is a genitive of comparison modifying the comparative adjectives θαρραλεώτερον καὶ ἀνδρειότερον. The dative phrase οὐκ ὀλίγῳ ('by no small amount') functions as a dative of measure of difference.
  4. 183aὅτι οἶμαι ἐγὼ τοῦτο ... οὐκ ἂν λεληθέναι Λακεδαιμονίους — The conjunction ὅτι introduces a noun clause depending on the verb λέγω (at the end of 182e and beginning of 183a). However, because of the parenthetical parenthesis οἶμαι ἐγὼ ('I think'), an accusative and infinitive construction (τοῦτο ... οὐκ ἂν λεληθέναι Λακεδαιμονίους) is used instead of a finite verb, creating a syntactic blend (anacoluthon).

Cite this passage

Plato, Laches §182-183. Humanitext Reader, https://reader.humanitext.ai/en/text/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0059.tlg019.humanitext-grc2:182-183

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