§148ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ φέρε πρὸς Διός—ὁρᾷς γὰρ δήπου τὴν ἀπορίαν ὅση τε καὶ οἵα, ταύτης δὲ καὶ σύ μοι δοκεῖς κεκοινωνηκέναι· μεταβαλλόμενός γέ τοι ἄνω καὶ κάτω οὐδʼ ὁτιοῦν παύῃ, ἀλλʼ ὅτι ἂν μάλιστά σοι δόξῃ, τοῦτο καὶ ἐκδεδυκέναι αὖ καὶ οὐκέτι ὡσαύτως δοκεῖν—εἰ οὖν σοί γʼ ἔτι καὶ νῦν ἐμφανὴς γενόμενος ὁ θεὸς πρὸς ὃν τυγχάνεις πορευόμενος ἐρωτήσειε, πρὶν ὁτιοῦν εὔξασθαί σε, εἰ ἐξαρκέσει σοι ἐκείνων τι γενέσθαι ὧνπερ καὶ ἐν ἀρχῇ ἐλέγετο, εἴτε καὶ αὐτῷ σοι ἐπιτρέψειεν εὔξασθαι, τί ποτʼ ἂν οἴει ἢ τῶν παρʼ ἐκείνου διδομένων λαμβάνων ἢ αὐτὸς εὐξάμενος γενέσθαι τοῦ καιροῦ τυχεῖν;
SOCRATES: But come, by Zeus—for you see surely how great and of what kind this perplexity is, and you too seem to me to have shared in it; at any rate, you do not cease shifting up and down, but what seemed most correct to you, this you strip off again and no longer think in the same way—if then, even now, the god to whom you happen to be going should appear and ask you, before you pray for anything, whether it will satisfy you for one of those things to happen which were mentioned at the beginning, or if he should permit you yourself to pray, what on earth do you think, either receiving what is given by him or praying yourself for something to happen, you would do to hit the mark?
ΑΛ. ἀλλὰ μὰ τοὺς θεούς, ἐγὼ μὲν οὐθὲν ἂν ἔχοιμί σοι εἰπεῖν, ὦ Σώκρατες, οὕτως·
ALKIBIADES: Well, by the gods, Socrates, I should have nothing to say to you in this way.
ἀλλὰ μάργον τί μοι δοκεῖ εἶναι, καὶ ὡς ἀληθῶς πολλῆς φυλακῆς, ὅπως μὴ λήσει τις αὑτὸν εὐχόμενος μὲν κακά, δοκῶν δὲ τἀγαθά, ἔπειτʼ ὀλίγον ἐπισχών, ὅπερ καὶ σὺ ἔλεγες, παλινῳδῇ, ἀνευχόμενος ἅττʼ ἂν τὸ πρῶτον εὔξηται.
But it seems to me to be a dangerous thing, and truly needing great caution, lest one unawares pray for evils while thinking they are goods, and then after a short pause, as you said, recant, praying to undo whatever he first prayed for.
ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν οὐχὶ εἰδώς τι πλέον ἡμῶν ὁ ποιητής, οὗ καὶ ἐν ἀρχῇ τοῦ λόγου ἐπεμνήσθην, τὰ δειλὰ καὶ εὐχομένοις ἀπαλέξειν ἐκέλευεν;
SOCRATES: Was not the poet then wiser than us, whom I also mentioned at the beginning of our talk, when he bade us pray to ward off dangerous things, even if we pray for them?
ΑΛ. ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ.
ALKIBIADES: It seems so to me.
ΣΩ. τοῦτον μὲν τοίνυν, ὦ Ἀλκιβιάδη, καὶ Λακεδαιμόνιοι τὸν ποιητὴν ἐζηλωκότες, εἴτε καὶ αὐτοὶ οὕτως ἐπεσκεμμένοι, καὶ ἰδίᾳ καὶ δημοσίᾳ ἑκάστοτε παραπλησίαν εὐχὴν εὔχονται, τὰ καλὰ ἐπὶ τοῖς ἀγαθοῖς τοὺς θεοὺς διδόναι κελεύοντες αὖ σφίσιν αὐτοῖς· πλείω δʼ οὐδεὶς ἂν ἐκείνων εὐξαμένων ἀκούσειεν.
SOCRATES: This poet then, Alcibiades, the Lacedaemonians also emulating, or perhaps having examined it themselves in this way, offer a similar prayer both in private and in public on every occasion, bidding the gods give them "noble things in addition to good things" to themselves; and no one would hear them praying for more.
τοιγαροῦν εἰς τὸ παρῆκον τοῦ χρόνου οὐδένων ἧττον εὐτυχεῖς εἰσιν ἄνθρωποι· εἰ δʼ ἄρα καὶ συμβέβηκεν αὐτοῖς ὥστε μὴ πάντα εὐτυχεῖν, ἀλλʼ οὖν οὐ διὰ τὴν ἐκείνων εὐχήν, ἐπὶ τοῖς θεοῖς δʼ ἐστὶν ὥστε οἶμαι καὶ διδόναι ἅττʼ ἄν τις εὐχόμενος τυγχάνῃ καὶ τἀναντία τούτων.
Therefore up to the present time they are no less fortunate than any other men; and if it has happened to them not to be fortunate in everything, yet at least it is not because of their prayer, but it is in the power of the gods, I think, to give whatever one happens to pray for, or the opposite of these.
βούλομαι δέ σοι καὶ ἕτερόν τι διηγήσασθαι, ὅ ποτε ἤκουσα τινῶν, ὡς Ἀθηναίοις καὶ Λακεδαιμονίοις διαφορᾶς γενομένης συνέβαινεν ἀεὶ τῇ πόλει ἡμῶν ὥστε καὶ κατὰ γῆν καὶ κατὰ θάλατταν ὁπότε μάχη γένοιτο δυστυχεῖν καὶ μηδέποτε δύνασθαι κρατῆσαι· τοὺς οὖν Ἀθηναίους ἀγανακτοῦντας τῷ πράγματι καὶ ἀπορουμένους τίνι χρὴ μηχανῇ τῶν παρόντων κακῶν ἀποτροπὴν εὑρεῖν, βουλευομένοις αὐτοῖς δοκεῖν κράτιστον εἶναι πέμψαντας πρὸς Ἄμμωνα ἐκεῖνον ἐπερωτᾶν· ἔτι δὲ πρὸς τούτοις τάδε, ἀνθʼ ὅτου ποτὲ Λακεδαιμονίοις οἱ θεοὶ μᾶλλον νίκην διδόασιν ἢ σφίσιν αὐτοῖς, οἳ πλείστας, φάναι, μὲν θυσίας καὶ καλλίστας τῶν Ἑλλήνων ἄγομεν, ἀναθήμασί τε κεκοσμήκαμεν τὰ ἱερὰ αὐτῶν ὡς οὐδένες ἄλλοι, πομπάς τε πολυτελεστάτας καὶ σεμνοτάτας ἐδωρούμεθα τοῖς θεοῖς ἀνʼ ἕκαστον ἔτος, καὶ ἐτελοῦμεν χρήματα ὅσα οὐδʼ ἇλλοι σύμπαντες Ἕλληνες· §149ΣΩ. Λακεδαιμονίοις δέ, φάναι, οὐδεπώποτʼ ἐμέλησεν οὐδὲν τούτων, ἀλλʼ οὕτως ὀλιγώρως διάκεινται πρὸς τοὺς θεούς, ὥστε καὶ ἀνάπηρα θύουσιν ἑκάστοτε καὶ τἆλλα πάντα οὐκ ὀλίγῳ ἐνδεεστέρως τιμῶσιν ἤπερ ἡμεῖς, χρήματα οὐδὲν ἐλάττω κεκτημένοι τῆς ἡμετέρας πόλεως.
And I want to tell you another story, which I once heard from some people, that when a dispute arose between the Athenians and Lacedaemonians, it always happened to our city to be unfortunate whenever a battle took place both by land and by sea, and never to be able to prevail; so the Athenians, being annoyed by this and at a loss by what device they should find an aversion of the present evils, decided in their council that it was best to send to Ammon to ask him; and moreover, besides this, why on earth the gods give victory to the Lacedaemonians rather than to themselves, who, they said, offer the most and finest sacrifices of all the Greeks, and have decorated their temples with offerings as no others have, and presented the most costly and solemn processions to the gods every year, and paid as much money as all the other Greeks combined; SOCRATES: while the Lacedaemonians, they said, never cared for any of these things, but are so negligent towards the gods that they even sacrifice maimed animals on each occasion, and in all other things honor them in a way not a little inferior to us, though possessing no less wealth than our city.
ἐπεὶ δὴ εἰρηκέναι ταῦτα καὶ ἐπερωτῆσαι τί χρὴ πράττοντας αὐτοὺς τῶν παρόντων κακῶν ἀπαλλαγὴν εὑρεῖν, ἄλλο μὲν οὐθὲν ἀποκριθῆναι τὸν προφήτην—τὸν γὰρ θεὸν οὐκ ἐᾶν δῆλον ὅτι—καλέσαντα δὲ αὐτόν, Ἀθηναίοις, φάναι, τάδε λέγει Ἄμμων· φησὶν ἂν βούλεσθαι αὑτῷ τὴν Λακεδαιμονίων εὐφημίαν εἶναι μᾶλλον ἢ τὰ σύμπαντα τῶν Ἑλλήνων ἱερά. τοσαῦτα εἰπεῖν, οὐκέτι περαιτέρω.
When they had said this and asked what they should do to find a release from the present evils, the prophet gave no other answer—for the god, of course, did not permit him—but calling him, he said, "Ammon says this to the Athenians: He says he would prefer the temperate prayer of the Lacedaemonians to all the sacrifices of the Greeks." So much he said, and no further.
τήν γʼ οὖν εὐφημίαν οὐκ ἄλλην τινά μοι δοκεῖ λέγειν ὁ θεὸς ἢ τὴν εὐχὴν αὐτῶν· ἔστι γὰρ τῷ ὄντι πολὺ διαφέρουσα τῶν ἄλλων.
At any rate, the god seems to me to mean by "temperate prayer" nothing other than their prayer; for it is indeed very different from others.
οἱ μὲν γὰρ ἄλλοι Ἕλληνες οἱ μὲν χρυσόκερως βοῦς παραστησάμενοι, ἕτεροι δʼ ἀναθήμασι δωρούμενοι τοὺς θεούς, εὔχονται ἅττʼ ἂν τύχῃ ταῦτα, ἄντε ἀγαθὰ ἄντε κακά· βλασφημούντων οὖν αὐτῶν ἀκούοντες οἱ θεοὶ οὐκ ἀποδέχονται τὰς πολυτελεῖς ταυτασὶ πομπάς τε καὶ θυσίας.
For the other Greeks, some presenting oxen with gilded horns, others presenting the gods with offerings, pray for whatever happens to come, whether good or bad; therefore the gods, hearing them pray for harmful things, do not accept these costly processions and sacrifices.
ἀλλὰ δοκεῖ μοι πολλῆς φυλακῆς δεῖσθαι καὶ σκέψεως ὅτι ποτὲ ῥητέον ἐστὶ καὶ μή.
But it seems to me to need much caution and consideration, what on earth should be said and what not.
εὑρήσεις δὲ καὶ παρʼ Ὁμήρῳ ἕτερα παραπλήσια τούτοις εἰρημένα.
And you will find similar things said in Homer too.
φησὶν γὰρ τοὺς Τρῶας ἔπαυλιν ποιουμένους
"
ἔρδειν ἀθανάτοισι τεληέσσας ἑκατόμβας· "
τὴν δὲ κνῖσαν ἐκ τοῦ πεδίου τοὺς ἀνέμους φέρειν οὐρανὸν εἴσω
"
ἡδεῖαν· τῆς δʼ οὔ τι θεοὺς μάκαρας δατέεσθαι,
οὐδʼ ἐθέλειν· μάλα γάρ σφιν ἀπήχθετο Ἴλιος ἱρὴ
"
"
καὶ Πρίαμος καὶ λαὸς ἐυμμελίω Πριάμοιο· "
ὥστε οὐδὲν αὐτοῖς ἦν προύργου θύειν τε καὶ δῶρα τελεῖν μάτην, θεοῖς ἀπηχθημένους.
For he says that the Trojans, when making their camp, "sacrificed perfect hecatombs to the immortals; and the winds carried the sweet savor from the plain into heaven; but of this the blessed gods did not partake, nor did they wish to; for holy Ilium was deeply hated by them, and Priam, and the people of Priam of the good ashen spear;" so that it was of no use for them to sacrifice and pay gifts in vain, being hated by the gods.
οὐ γὰρ οἶμαι τοιοῦτόν ἐστι τὸ τῶν θεῶν ὥστε ὑπὸ δώρων παράγεσθαι οἷον κακὸν τοκιστήν· ἀλλὰ καὶ ἡμεῖς εὐήθη λόγον λέγομεν, ἀξιοῦντες Λακεδαιμονίων ταύτῃ περιεῖναι.
For I do not think the nature of the gods is such as to be enticed by gifts like a wicked usurer; and we too speak foolishly when we think we can surpass the Lacedaemonians in this way.
καὶ γὰρ ἂν δεινὸν εἴη εἰ πρὸς τὰ δῶρα καὶ τὰς θυσίας ἀποβλέπουσιν ἡμῶν οἱ θεοὶ ἀλλὰ μὴ πρὸς τὴν ψυχήν, ἄν τις ὅσιος καὶ δίκαιος ὢν τυγχάνῃ.
For indeed it would be a terrible thing if the gods looked to our gifts and sacrifices, and not to the soul, if one happens to be holy and just.