§145ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν οἱ ῥήτορες αὐτίκα ἤτοι εἰδότες συμβουλεύειν ἢ οἰηθέντες εἰδέναι συμβουλεύουσιν ἡμῖν ἑκάστοτε, οἱ μὲν περὶ πολέμου τε καὶ εἰρήνης, οἱ δὲ περὶ τειχῶν οἰκοδομίας ἢ καὶ λιμένων κατασκευῆς·
SOCRATES: So, for example, do not the orators each time advise us either knowing how to advise or thinking they know, some about war and peace, others about the building of walls or the construction of harbors?
ἑνὶ δὲ λόγῳ, ὅσα δή ποτε ἡ πόλις πράττει πρὸς ἄλλην πόλιν ἢ αὐτὴ καθʼ αὑτήν, ἀπὸ τῆς τῶν ῥητόρων συμβουλῆς πάντα γίγνεται.
In a word, whatever the city does towards another city or by itself, all comes about from the advice of the orators.
ΑΛ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις.
ALKIBIADES: What you say is true.
ΣΩ. ὅρα τοίνυν καὶ τὰ ἐπὶ τούτοις.
SOCRATES: Look then at what follows these things.
ΑΛ. ἂν δυνηθῶ.
ALKIBIADES: If I am able.
ΣΩ. καλεῖς γὰρ δήπου φρονίμους τε καὶ ἄφρονας;
SOCRATES: For you surely call some people prudent and others imprudent?
ΑΛ. ἔγωγε.
ALKIBIADES: I do.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν τοὺς μὲν πολλοὺς ἄφρονας, τοὺς δʼ ὀλίγους φρονίμους;
SOCRATES: Therefore, do you call the many imprudent, and the few prudent?
ΑΛ. οὕτως.
ALKIBIADES: That is so.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν πρός τι ἀποβλέπων ἀμφοτέρους;
SOCRATES: Therefore, looking to something in so calling both?
ΑΛ. ναί.
ALKIBIADES: Yes.
ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν τὸν τοιοῦτον συμβουλεύειν εἰδότα, χωρὶς τοῦ πότερον βέλτιον καὶ ὅτε βέλτιον, φρόνιμον καλεῖς;
SOCRATES: Do you then call such a person prudent, who knows how to advise, apart from whether it is better and when it is better?
ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα.
ALKIBIADES: Surely not.
ΣΩ. οὐδέ γε οἶμαι ὅστις τὸ πολεμεῖν αὐτὸ οἶδε χωρὶς τοῦ ὁπότε βέλτιον καὶ τοσοῦτον χρόνον ὅσον βέλτιον.
SOCRATES: Nor, I think, any one who knows how to wage war itself, apart from when it is better and for as long a time as it is better.
ἦ γάρ;
Is that not so?
ΑΛ. ναί.
ALKIBIADES: Yes.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν οὐδὲ εἴ τίς τινα ἀποκτεινύναι οἶδεν οὐδὲ χρήματα ἀφαιρεῖσθαι καὶ φυγάδα ποιεῖν τῆς πατρίδος, χωρὶς τοῦ ὁπότε βέλτιον καὶ ὅντινα βέλτιον;
SOCRATES: Therefore, not even if someone knows how to kill someone, or to take away property, or to banish them from their native land, apart from when it is better and whom it is better to do so to?
ΑΛ. οὐ μέντοι.
ALKIBIADES: Indeed not.
ΣΩ. ὅστις ἄρα τι τῶν τοιούτων οἶδεν, ἐὰν μὲν παρέπηται αὐτῷ ἡ τοῦ βελτίστου ἐπιστήμη—αὕτη δʼ ἦν ἡ αὐτὴ δήπου ἥπερ καὶ ἡ τοῦ ὠφελίμου· ἦ γάρ; —
ΑΛ. ναί.
SOCRATES: So, whoever knows any of such things, if indeed the science of the best accompanies him—and this was surely the same as that of the useful; was it not? — ALKIBIADES: Yes.
ΣΩ. φρόνιμον δέ γε αὐτὸν φήσομεν καὶ ἀποχρῶντα σύμβουλον καὶ τῇ πόλει καὶ αὐτὸν αὑτῷ· τὸν δὲ μὴ τοιοῦτον τἀναντία τούτων.
SOCRATES: we shall say that he is prudent and a sufficient adviser both to the city and to himself; but the one who is not such, the opposite of these.
ἢ πῶς δοκεῖ;
Or how does it seem to you?
ΑΛ. ἐμοὶ μὲν οὕτως.
ALKIBIADES: To me, in that way.
ΣΩ. τί δʼ εἴ τις ἱππεύειν ἢ τοξεύειν οἶδεν, ἢ αὖ πυκτεύειν ἢ παλαίειν ἤ τι τῆς ἄλλης ἀγωνίας ἢ καὶ ἄλλο τι τῶν τοιούτων ὅσα τέχνῃ οἴδαμεν, τί καλεῖς ὃς ἂν εἰδῇ τὸ κατὰ ταύτην τὴν τέχνην βέλτιον γιγνόμενον;
SOCRATES: And what if someone knows how to ride or to shoot with a bow, or again to box or to wrestle, or any other of the athletic contests, or indeed any other of such things as we know by art—what do you call the one who knows what is done better according to this art?
ἆρʼ οὐ τὸν κατὰ τὴν ἱππικὴν ἱππικόν;
Do you not call the one according to horsemanship a horseman?
ΑΛ. ἔγωγε.
ALKIBIADES: I do.
ΣΩ. τὸν δέ γε οἶμαι κατὰ τὴν πυκτικὴν πυκτικόν, τὸν δὲ κατʼ αὐλητικὴν αὐλητικόν, καὶ τἆλλα δήπου ἀνὰ λόγον τούτοις·
SOCRATES: And the one according to boxing, I think, a boxer, and the one according to flute-playing, a flute-player, and the other things surely in proportion to these.
ἢ ἄλλως πως;
Or in some other way?
ΑΛ. οὔκ, ἀλλʼ οὕτως.
ALKIBIADES: No, but in that way.
ΣΩ. δοκεῖ οὖν σοι ἀναγκαῖον εἶναι τὸν περὶ τούτων τι ἐπιστήμονα ὄντα ἄρα καὶ ἄνδρα φρόνιμον εἶναι, ἢ πολλοῦ φήσομεν ἐνδεῖν;
SOCRATES: Does it then seem necessary to you that the one who has knowledge about some of these things is therefore also a prudent man, or shall we say that he falls far short of it?
ΑΛ. πολλοῦ μέντοι νὴ Δία.
ALKIBIADES: Far short indeed, by Zeus.
ΣΩ. ποίαν οὖν οἴει πολιτείαν εἶναι τοξοτῶν τε ἀγαθῶν καὶ αὐλητῶν, ἔτι δὲ καὶ ἀθλητῶν τε καὶ τῶν ἄλλων τεχνιτῶν, ἀναμεμειγμένων δʼ ἐν τούτοις οὓς ἄρτι εἰρήκαμεν τῶν τε αὐτὸ τὸ πολεμεῖν εἰδότων καὶ αὐτὸ τὸ ἀποκτεινύναι, πρὸς δὲ καὶ ἀνδρῶν ῥητορικῶν πολιτικὸν φύσημα φυσώντων, ἁπάντων δὲ τούτων ὄντων ἄνευ τῆς τοῦ βελτίστου ἐπιστήμης καὶ τοῦ εἰδότος, ὁπότε βέλτιον ἑνὶ ἑκάστῳ τούτων χρῆσθαι καὶ πρὸς τίνα;
SOCRATES: What kind of state then do you think it would be, consisting of good archers and flute-players, and furthermore of athletes and other craftsmen, mixed among whom are those whom we have just mentioned who know how to wage war itself and how to kill itself, and in addition rhetorical men blowing a political puff, when all of these exist without the science of the best and the one who knows when it is better for each of these to be used and towards whom?