Plato · Alcibiades I §107-108

Subjects of Advice and the Standard of the Better in Arts

Passage 4 of 21 · Greek

Summary

Socrates questions Alcibiades about the specific area in which he can advise the Athenians better than others, using specialized arts like gymnastics and music to demonstrate that there is always a standard of "the better" determined by expertise.

§107ΣΩ. πότερον οὖν, ὅταν περὶ γραμμάτων Ἀθηναῖοι βουλεύωνται, πῶς ἂν ὀρθῶς γράφοιεν, τότε ἀναστήσῃ αὐτοῖς συμβουλεύσων;

SOCRATES: Then, whenever the Athenians deliberate about writing, how they might write correctly, will you then stand up to advise them?

ΑΛ. μὰ Δίʼ οὐκ ἔγωγε.

ALCIBIADES: By Zeus, not I.

ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ ὅταν περὶ κρουμάτων ἐν λύρᾳ;

SOCRATES: But when they deliberate about striking the lyre?

ΑΛ. οὐδαμῶς.

ALCIBIADES: By no means.

ΣΩ. οὐδὲ μὴν οὐδὲ περὶ παλαισμάτων γε εἰώθασι βουλεύεσθαι ἐν τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ.

SOCRATES: Nor indeed are they accustomed to deliberate about wrestling matches in the assembly.

ΑΛ. οὐ μέντοι.

ALCIBIADES: Indeed not.

ΣΩ. ὅταν οὖν περὶ τίνος βουλεύωνται;

SOCRATES: Then when they deliberate about what?

οὐ γάρ που ὅταν γε περὶ οἰκοδομίας.

Surely not when it is about building houses.

ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα.

ALCIBIADES: Certainly not.

ΣΩ. οἰκοδόμος γὰρ ταῦτά γε σοῦ βέλτιον συμβουλεύσει.

SOCRATES: For a builder will advise them on these things better than you.

ΑΛ. ναί.

ALCIBIADES: Yes.

ΣΩ. οὐδὲ μὴν ὅταν περὶ μαντικῆς βουλεύωνται;

SOCRATES: Nor indeed when they deliberate about divination?

ΑΛ. οὔ.

ALCIBIADES: No.

ΣΩ. μάντις γὰρ αὖ ταῦτα ἄμεινον ἢ σύ.

SOCRATES: For a diviner, in turn, advises on these things better than you.

ΑΛ. ναί.

ALCIBIADES: Yes.

ΣΩ. ἐάν τέ γε σμικρὸς ἢ μέγας ᾖ, ἐάν τε καλὸς ἢ αἰσχρός, ἔτι τε γενναῖος ἢ ἀγεννής.

SOCRATES: And that too whether he be small or tall, handsome or ugly, and moreover noble or low-born.

ΑΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;

ALCIBIADES: To be sure.

ΣΩ. εἰδότος γὰρ οἶμαι περὶ ἑκάστου ἡ συμβουλή, καὶ οὐ πλουτοῦντος.

SOCRATES: For the advice, I think, belongs to the one who knows about each thing, and not to the one who is rich.

ΑΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;

ALCIBIADES: To be sure.

ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ ἐάντε πένης ἐάντε πλούσιος ᾖ ὁ παραινῶν, οὐδὲν διοίσει Ἀθηναίοις ὅταν περὶ τῶν ἐν τῇ πόλει βουλεύωνται, πῶς ἂν ὑγιαίνοιεν, ἀλλὰ ζητήσουσιν ἰατρὸν εἶναι τὸν σύμβουλον.

SOCRATES: And whether the adviser is poor or rich, it will make no difference to the Athenians when they deliberate about those in the city, how they might be healthy, but they will seek that the adviser be a doctor.

ΑΛ. εἰκότως γε.

ALCIBIADES: Reasonably so.

ΣΩ. ὅταν οὖν περὶ τίνος σκοπῶνται, τότε σὺ ἀνιστάμενος ὡς συμβουλεύσων ὀρθῶς ἀναστήσῃ;

SOCRATES: Then when they consider about what, will you be rising up and rightly rise up to advise them?

ΑΛ. ὅταν περὶ τῶν ἑαυτῶν πραγμάτων, ὦ Σώκρατες.

ALCIBIADES: When it is about their own affairs, Socrates.

ΣΩ. τῶν περὶ ναυπηγίας λέγεις, ὁποίας τινὰς χρὴ αὐτοὺς τὰς ναῦς ναυπηγεῖσθαι;

SOCRATES: Do you mean those affairs regarding shipbuilding, as to what kind of ships they ought to build?

ΑΛ. οὐκ ἔγωγε, ὦ Σώκρατες.

ALCIBIADES: Not I, Socrates.

ΣΩ. ναυπηγεῖν γὰρ οἶμαι οὐκ ἐπίστασαι.

SOCRATES: For you do not, I think, know how to build ships.

τοῦτʼ αἴτιον ἢ ἄλλο τι;

Is this the reason, or something else?

ΑΛ. οὔκ, ἀλλὰ τοῦτο.

ALCIBIADES: No, but this.

ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ περὶ ποίων τῶν ἑαυτῶν λέγεις πραγμάτων ὅταν βουλεύωνται;

SOCRATES: But about which of their own affairs do you mean, when they deliberate?

ΑΛ. ὅταν περὶ πολέμου, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἢ περὶ εἰρήνης ἢ ἄλλου του τῶν τῆς πόλεως πραγμάτων.

ALCIBIADES: When it is about war, Socrates, or about peace, or some other of the city's affairs.

ΣΩ. ἆρα λέγεις ὅταν βουλεύωνται πρὸς τίνας χρὴ εἰρήνην ποιεῖσθαι καὶ τίσιν πολεμεῖν καὶ τίνα τρόπον;

SOCRATES: Do you mean when they deliberate with whom they ought to make peace, and against whom they should make war, and in what manner?

ΑΛ. ναί.

ALCIBIADES: Yes.

ΣΩ. χρὴ δʼ οὐχ οἷς βέλτιον;

SOCRATES: And must it not be with those with whom it is better?

ΑΛ. ναί.

ALCIBIADES: Yes.

ΣΩ. καὶ τόθʼ ὁπότε βέλτιον;

SOCRATES: And at the time when it is better?

ΑΛ. πάνυ γε.

ALCIBIADES: Quite so.

ΣΩ. καὶ τοσοῦτον χρόνον ὅσον ἄμεινον;

SOCRATES: And for as long a time as it is better?

ΑΛ. ναί.

ALCIBIADES: Yes.

ΣΩ. εἰ οὖν βουλεύοιντο Ἀθηναῖοι τίσιν χρὴ προσπαλαίειν καὶ τίσιν ἀκροχειρίζεσθαι καὶ τίνα τρόπον, σὺ ἄμεινον ἂν συμβουλεύοις ἢ ὁ παιδοτρίβης;

SOCRATES: If then the Athenians should deliberate against whom they ought to wrestle, and with whom to spar, and in what manner, would you advise them better, or the gymnastic trainer?

ΑΛ. ὁ παιδοτρίβης δήπου.

ALCIBIADES: The trainer, surely.

ΣΩ. ἔχεις οὖν εἰπεῖν πρὸς τί ἂν βλέπων ὁ παιδοτρίβης συμβουλεύσειεν οἷς δεῖ προσπαλαίειν καὶ οἷς μή, καὶ ὁπότε καὶ ὅντινα τρόπον;

SOCRATES: Can you then say, looking to what, the trainer would advise whom they ought to wrestle with and whom not, and when and in what manner?

λέγω δὲ τὸ τοιόνδε· ἆρα τούτοις δεῖ προσπαλαίειν οἷς βέλτιον, ἢ οὔ;

I mean something like this: must they wrestle with those with whom it is better, or not?

ΑΛ. ναί.

ALCIBIADES: Yes.

§108ΣΩ. ἆρα καὶ τοσαῦτα ὅσα ἄμεινον;

SOCRATES: And also to such an extent as it is better?

ΑΛ. τοσαῦτα.

ALCIBIADES: To such an extent.

ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ τότε ὅτε ἄμεινον;

SOCRATES: And also then when it is better?

ΑΛ. πάνυ γε.

ALCIBIADES: Quite so.

ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ μὴν καὶ ᾁδοντα δεῖ κιθαρίζειν ποτὲ πρὸς τὴν ᾠδὴν καὶ βαίνειν;

SOCRATES: And furthermore, must one sometimes play the lyre while singing and keeping step to the song?

ΑΛ. δεῖ γάρ.

ALCIBIADES: Yes, one must.

ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν τότε ὁπότε βέλτιον;

SOCRATES: And then when it is better?

ΑΛ. ναί.

ALCIBIADES: Yes.

ΣΩ. καὶ τοσαῦθʼ ὅσα βέλτιον;

SOCRATES: And to such an extent as it is better?

ΑΛ. φημί.

ALCIBIADES: Yes.

ΣΩ. τί οὖν;

SOCRATES: What then?

ἐπειδὴ βέλτιον μὲν ὠνόμαζες ἐπʼ ἀμφοτέροις, τῷ τε κιθαρίζειν πρὸς τὴν ᾠδὴν καὶ τῷ προσπαλαίειν, τί καλεῖς τὸ ἐν τῷ κιθαρίζειν βέλτιον, ὥσπερ ἐγὼ τὸ ἐν τῷ παλαίειν καλῶ γυμναστικόν·

Since you used the term 'better' for both, namely, for playing the lyre to the song and for wrestling, what do you call the 'better' in playing the lyre, just as I call the 'better' in wrestling 'gymnastic'?

σὺ δʼ ἐκεῖνο τί καλεῖς;

What do you call that other one?

ΑΛ. οὐκ ἐννοῶ.

ALCIBIADES: I do not understand.

ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ πειρῶ ἐμὲ μιμεῖσθαι.

SOCRATES: Well, try to imitate me.

ἐγὼ γάρ που ἀπεκρινάμην τὸ διὰ παντὸς ὀρθῶς ἔχον, ὀρθῶς δὲ δήπου ἔχει τὸ κατὰ τὴν τέχνην γιγνόμενον· ἢ οὔ;

For I, as you know, gave an answer that is correct in every way, and what is done according to art is surely correct, is it not?

ΑΛ. ναί.

ALCIBIADES: Yes.

ΣΩ. ἡ δὲ τέχνη οὐ γυμναστικὴ ἦν;

SOCRATES: And was not that art gymnastics?

ΑΛ. πῶς δʼ οὔ;

ALCIBIADES: Of course.

ΣΩ. ἐγὼ δʼ εἶπον τὸ ἐν τῷ παλαίειν βέλτιον γυμναστικόν.

SOCRATES: And I called the 'better' in wrestling 'gymnastic'.

ΑΛ. εἶπες γάρ.

ALCIBIADES: Yes, you did.

ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καλῶς;

SOCRATES: Was that not well said?

ΑΛ. ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ.

ALCIBIADES: So it seems to me.

ΣΩ. ἴθι δὴ καὶ σύ—πρέποι γὰρ ἄν που καὶ σοὶ τὸ καλῶς διαλέγεσθαι—εἰπὲ πρῶτον τίς ἡ τέχνη ἧς τὸ κιθαρίζειν καὶ τὸ ᾁδειν καὶ τὸ ἐμβαίνειν ὀρθῶς; συνάπασα τίς καλεῖται;

SOCRATES: Come then, you too—for it would surely befit you to speak well—tell me first, what is the art to which correct playing of the lyre, singing, and marching belong?

οὔπω δύνασαι εἰπεῖν;

What is it called as a whole?

ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα.

Can you not yet say?

ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ ὧδε πειρῶ·

ALCIBIADES: No indeed.

τίνες αἱ θεαὶ ὧν ἡ τέχνη;

SOCRATES: Well, try it this way: who are the goddesses to whom the art belongs?

ΑΛ. τὰς μούσας, ὦ Σώκρατες, λέγεις;

ALCIBIADES: Do you mean the Muses, Socrates?

ΣΩ. ἔγωγε.

SOCRATES: Yes, indeed.

ὅρα δή· τίνα ἀπʼ αὐτῶν ἐπωνυμίαν ἡ τέχνη ἔχει;

Look now: what name does the art derive from them?

ΑΛ. μουσικήν μοι δοκεῖς λέγειν.

ALCIBIADES: You seem to me to mean music.

ΣΩ. λέγω γάρ.

SOCRATES: Yes, I do.

τί οὖν τὸ κατὰ ταύτην ὀρθῶς γιγνόμενόν ἐστιν;

What, then, is that which is correctly done according to this art?

ὥσπερ ἐκεῖ ἐγώ σοι τὸ κατὰ τὴν τέχνην ἔλεγον ὀρθῶς, τὴν γυμναστικήν, καὶ σὺ δὴ οὖν οὕτως ἐνταῦθα τί φῄς; πῶς γίγνεσθαι;

Just as in the other case I told you what was correct according to the art, namely gymnastics, so now, what do you say here?

ΑΛ. μουσικῶς μοι δοκεῖ.

How is it done?

ΣΩ. εὖ λέγεις.

ALCIBIADES: Musically, it seems to me.

ἴθι δή, καὶ τὸ ἐν τῷ πολεμεῖν βέλτιον καὶ τὸ ἐν τῷ εἰρήνην ἄγειν, τοῦτο τὸ βέλτιον τί ὀνομάζεις;

SOCRATES: Well said.

ὥσπερ ἐκεῖ ἐφʼ ἑκάστῳ ἔλεγες τὸ ἄμεινον, ὅτι μουσικώτερον καὶ ἐπὶ τῷ ἑτέρῳ, ὅτι γυμναστικώτερον·

Come then, and the 'better' in making war and in keeping peace, what do you call this 'better'?

πειρῶ δὴ καὶ ἐνταῦθα λέγειν τὸ βέλτιον.

Just as in those cases you said the 'better' was 'more musical' for the one, and 'more gymnastic' for the other; try now to name the 'better' here too.

ΑΛ. ἀλλʼ οὐ πάνυ τι ἔχω.

ALCIBIADES: But I really have no idea.

Notes

107aπῶς ἂν ὀρθῶς γράφοιεν — The optative with `ἄν` accompanied by the interrogative `πῶς` forms an indirect question dependent on the verb `βουλεύωνται`.
107cὅταν περὶ τῶν ἐν τῇ πόλει βουλεύωνται... πῶς ἂν ὑγιαίνοιεν — The indirect question `πῶς ἂν ὑγιαίνοιεν` serves as an appositive clause explaining the concrete content of the preceding phrase `τῶν ἐν τῇ πόλει [πραγμάτων]`.
108bτί καλεῖς τὸ ἐν τῷ κιθαρίζειν βέλτιον — The verb `καλεῖς` takes a double accusative (direct object and object complement). Here, `τὸ ἐν τῷ κιθαρίζειν βέλτιον` is the direct object, and the interrogative pronoun `τί` serves as the object complement.

Cite this passage

Plato, Alcibiades I §107-108. Humanitext Reader, https://reader.humanitext.ai/en/text/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0059.tlg013.humanitext-grc2:107-108

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