§27ΣΩ. καὶ μὴν τό γε ποιούμενον αὖ καὶ τὸ γιγνόμενον οὐδὲν πλὴν ὀνόματι, καθάπερ τὸ νυνδή, διαφέρον εὑρήσομεν.
SOCRATES: And indeed, we shall find that what is made, in turn, and what comes to be differ in nothing except in name, just like what we said just now.
ἢ πῶς;
Or how?
ΠΡΩ. οὕτως.
PROTARCHUS: Thus.
ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν ἡγεῖται μὲν τὸ ποιοῦν ἀεὶ κατὰ φύσιν, τὸ δὲ ποιούμενον ἐπακολουθεῖ γιγνόμενον ἐκείνῳ;
SOCRATES: Does, then, that which makes always lead according to nature, and that which is made follow, coming to be because of that?
ΠΡΩ. πάνυ γε.
PROTARCHUS: By all means.
ΣΩ. ἄλλο ἄρα καὶ οὐ ταὐτὸν αἰτία τʼ ἐστὶ καὶ τὸ δουλεῦον εἰς γένεσιν αἰτίᾳ.
SOCRATES: Therefore, the cause and that which serves the cause for generation are other and not the same?
ΠΡΩ. τί μήν;
PROTARCHUS: Of course.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν τὰ μὲν γιγνόμενα καὶ ἐξ ὧν γίγνεται πάντα τὰ τρία παρέσχετο ἡμῖν γένη;
SOCRATES: Did not, then, the things coming to be and those out of which they come to be, all of them, present to us the three kinds?
ΠΡΩ. καὶ μάλα.
PROTARCHUS: Very much so.
ΣΩ. τὸ δὲ δὴ πάντα ταῦτα δημιουργοῦν λέγομεν τέταρτον, τὴν αἰτίαν, ὡς ἱκανῶς ἕτερον ἐκείνων δεδηλωμένον;
SOCRATES: But as for that which crafts all these, do we call it the fourth, the cause, as having been shown to be sufficiently distinct from them?
ΠΡΩ. ἕτερον γὰρ οὖν.
PROTARCHUS: For it is indeed different.
ΣΩ. ὀρθῶς μὴν ἔχει, διωρισμένων τῶν τεττάρων, ἑνὸς ἑκάστου μνήμης ἕνεκα ἐφεξῆς αὐτὰ καταριθμήσασθαι.
SOCRATES: Indeed it is right, now that the four have been defined, to enumerate them in order for the sake of remembering each one.
ΠΡΩ. τί μήν;
PROTARCHUS: Of course.
ΣΩ. πρῶτον μὲν τοίνυν ἄπειρον λέγω, δεύτερον δὲ πέρας, ἔπειτʼ ἐκ τούτων τρίτον μεικτὴν καὶ γεγενημένην οὐσίαν· τὴν δὲ τῆς μείξεως αἰτίαν καὶ γενέσεως τετάρτην λέγων ἆρα μὴ πλημμελοίην ἄν τι;
SOCRATES: First, then, I say the unlimited; second, the limit; then, third, from these, the mixed and generated being; and if I call the cause of this mixture and generation the fourth, would I make any error?
ΠΡΩ. καὶ πῶς;
PROTARCHUS: And how could you?
ΣΩ. φέρε δή, τὸ μετὰ τοῦθʼ ἡμῖν τίς ὁ λόγος, καὶ τί ποτε βουληθέντες εἰς ταῦτα ἀφικόμεθα;
SOCRATES: Come now, what is our next argument, and wanting what did we arrive at these things?
ἆρʼ οὐ τόδε ἦν;
Was it not this?
δευτερεῖα ἐζητοῦμεν πότερον ἡδονῆς γίγνοιτʼ ἂν ἢ φρονήσεως.
We were seeking whether the second prize belongs to pleasure or to wisdom.
οὐχ οὕτως ἦν;
Was it not so?
ΠΡΩ. οὕτω μὲν οὖν.
PROTARCHUS: Exactly so.
ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν ἴσως νῦν, ἐπειδὴ ταῦτα οὕτω διειλόμεθα, κάλλιον ἂν καὶ τὴν κρίσιν ἐπιτελεσαίμεθα πρώτου πέρι καὶ δευτέρου, περὶ ὧν δὴ τὸ πρῶτον ἠμφεσβητήσαμεν;
SOCRATES: Would we then now, perhaps, since we have divided these things thus, also beautifully accomplish the judgment about the first and the second, concerning which we disputed at first?
ΠΡΩ. ἴσως.
PROTARCHUS: Perhaps.
ΣΩ. ἴθι δή· νικῶντα μὲν ἔθεμέν που τὸν μεικτὸν βίον ἡδονῆς τε καὶ φρονήσεως.
SOCRATES: Come then; we posited, I believe, that the mixed life of pleasure and wisdom was victorious.
ἦν οὕτως;
Was it so?
ΠΡΩ. ἦν.
PROTARCHUS: It was.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν τοῦτον μὲν τὸν βίον ὁρῶμέν που τίς τέ ἐστι καὶ ὁποίου γένους;
SOCRATES: Do we not, then, see what this life is and of what kind it is?
ΠΡΩ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
PROTARCHUS: How could we not?
ΣΩ. καὶ μέρος γʼ αὐτὸν φήσομεν εἶναι τοῦ τρίτου οἶμαι γένους·
SOCRATES: And indeed we shall say that it is a part, I think, of the third kind.
οὐ γὰρ δυοῖν τινοῖν ἐστι ἀλλὰ συμπάντων τῶν ἀπείρων ὑπὸ τοῦ πέρατος δεδεμένων, ὥστε ὀρθῶς ὁ νικηφόρος οὗτος βίος μέρος ἐκείνου γίγνοιτʼ ἄν.
For it is not of any two things, but of all the unlimited things bound by the limit, so that rightly this victorious life would become a part of that.
ΠΡΩ. ὀρθότατα μὲν οὖν.
PROTARCHUS: Most rightly indeed.
ΣΩ. εἶεν·
SOCRATES: Very well.
τί δὲ ὁ σός, ὦ Φίληβε, ἡδὺς καὶ ἄμεικτος ὤν;
But what of yours, Philebus, being pleasant and unmixed?
ἐν τίνι γένει τῶν εἰρημένων λεγόμενος ὀρθῶς ἄν ποτε λέγοιτο;
In which of the mentioned kinds would it be rightly said to belong?
ὧδε δʼ ἀπόκριναί μοι πρὶν ἀποφήνασθαι.
Answer me in this way before making your pronouncement.
ΦΙ. λέγε μόνον.
PHILEBUS: Only speak.
ΣΩ. ἡδονὴ καὶ λύπη πέρας ἔχετον, ἢ τῶν τὸ μᾶλλόν τε καὶ ἧττον δεχομένων ἐστόν;
SOCRATES: Do pleasure and pain have limit, or are they of those which admit the more and the less?
ΦΙ. ναί, τῶν τὸ μᾶλλον, ὦ Σώκρατες· οὐ γὰρ ἂν ἡδονὴ πᾶν ἀγαθὸν ἦν, εἰ μὴ ἄπειρον ἐτύγχανε πεφυκὸς καὶ πλήθει καὶ τῷ μᾶλλον.
PHILEBUS: Yes, of those that admit the more, Socrates; for pleasure would not be all good, if it did not happen to be unlimited by nature both in multitude and in the more.
§28ΣΩ. οὐδέ γʼ ἄν, ὦ Φίληβε, λύπη πᾶν κακόν· ὥστʼ ἄλλο τι νῷν σκεπτέον ἢ τὴν τοῦ ἀπείρου φύσιν ὡς παρέχεταί τι μέρος ταῖς ἡδοναῖς ἀγαθοῦ.
SOCRATES: Nor indeed, Philebus, would pain be all evil; so that we must consider something other than the nature of the unlimited as that which provides some share of good to pleasures.
τούτω δή σοι τῶν ἀπεράντων γε γένους ἔστων·
Let these two be for you of the genus of the unlimited.
φρόνησιν δὲ καὶ ἐπιστήμην καὶ νοῦν εἰς τί ποτε τῶν προειρημένων, ὦ Πρώταρχέ τε καὶ Φίληβε, νῦν θέντες οὐκ ἂν ἀσεβοῖμεν;
But as for wisdom, knowledge, and mind, into which of the aforementioned, Protarchus and Philebus, should we now put them so as not to commit impiety?
οὐ γάρ μοι δοκεῖ σμικρὸς ἡμῖν εἶναι ὁ κίνδυνος κατορθώσασι καὶ μὴ περὶ τὸ νῦν ἐρωτώμενον.
For the danger seems to me to be no small one for us, whether we succeed or fail concerning what is now asked.
ΦΙ. σεμνύνεις γάρ, ὦ Σώκρατες, τὸν σεαυτοῦ θεόν.
PHILEBUS: For you are magnifying, Socrates, your own god.
ΣΩ. καὶ γὰρ σύ, ὦ ἑταῖρε, τὴν σαυτοῦ·
SOCRATES: And you also, my friend, yours.
τὸ δʼ ἐρωτώμενον ὅμως ἡμῖν λεκτέον.
But nevertheless we must speak of what is asked.
ΠΡΩ. ὀρθῶς τοι λέγει Σωκράτης, ὦ Φίληβε, καὶ αὐτῷ πειστέον.
PROTARCHUS: Socrates speaks rightly, Philebus, and we must obey him.
ΦΙ. οὐκοῦν ὑπὲρ ἐμοῦ σύ, Πρώταρχε, προῄρησαι λέγειν;
PHILEBUS: Then have you not, Protarchus, chosen to speak on my behalf?
ΠΡΩ. πάνυ γε·
PROTARCHUS: Indeed.
νῦν μέντοι σχεδὸν ἀπορῶ, καὶ δέομαί γε, ὦ Σώκρατες, αὐτόν σε ἡμῖν γενέσθαι προφήτην, ἵνα μηδὲν ἡμεῖς σοι περὶ τὸν ἀγωνιστὴν ἐξαμαρτάνοντες παρὰ μέλος φθεγξώμεθά τι.
But now, however, I am almost at a loss, and I beg you, Socrates, to become yourself our spokesman, so that we might not say something discordant by making an error about your contestant.
ΣΩ. πειστέον, ὦ Πρώταρχε· οὐδὲ γὰρ χαλεπὸν οὐδὲν ἐπιτάττεις.
SOCRATES: I must obey, Protarchus; for you command nothing difficult.
ἀλλʼ ὄντως σε ἐγώ, καθάπερ εἶπε Φίληβος, σεμνύνων ἐν τῷ παίζειν ἐθορύβησα, νοῦν καὶ ἐπιστήμην ἐρόμενος ὁποίου γένους εἶεν;
But did I really trouble you by playing, as Philebus said, and magnifying, when I asked of what kind mind and knowledge are?
ΠΡΩ. παντάπασί γε, ὦ Σώκρατες.
PROTARCHUS: Absolutely, Socrates.
ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ μὴν ῥᾴδιον·
SOCRATES: But indeed it is easy.
πάντες γὰρ συμφωνοῦσιν οἱ σοφοί, ἑαυτοὺς ὄντως σεμνύνοντες, ὡς νοῦς ἐστι βασιλεὺς ἡμῖν οὐρανοῦ τε καὶ γῆς.
For all the wise agree, really magnifying themselves, that mind is king for us of both heaven and earth.
καὶ ἴσως εὖ λέγουσι.
And perhaps they speak well.
διὰ μακροτέρων δʼ, εἰ βούλει, τὴν σκέψιν αὐτοῦ τοῦ γένους ποιησώμεθα.
But let us, if you wish, make the investigation of its genus at greater length.
ΠΡΩ. λέγʼ ὅπως βούλει, μηδὲν μῆκος ἡμῖν ὑπολογιζόμενος, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὡς οὐκ ἀπεχθησόμενος.
PROTARCHUS: Speak as you wish, without taking any length into account for us, Socrates, as you will not be disliked.
ΣΩ. καλῶς εἶπες.
SOCRATES: Well said.
ἀρξώμεθα δέ πως ὧδε ἐπανερωτῶντες.
And let us begin somehow by questioning again in this way.
ΠΡΩ. πῶς;
PROTARCHUS: How?
ΣΩ. πότερον, ὦ Πρώταρχε, τὰ σύμπαντα καὶ τόδε τὸ καλούμενον ὅλον ἐπιτροπεύειν φῶμεν τὴν τοῦ ἀλόγου καὶ εἰκῇ δύναμιν καὶ τὸ ὅπῃ ἔτυχεν, ἢ τἀναντία, καθάπερ οἱ πρόσθεν ἡμῶν ἔλεγον, νοῦν καὶ φρόνησίν τινα θαυμαστὴν συντάττουσαν διακυβερνᾶν;
SOCRATES: Whether, Protarchus, shall we say that the universe and this so-called whole are governed by the power of the irrational and at-random, and whatever happens by chance, or on the contrary, as our predecessors said, that mind and some wonderful wisdom arrange and govern them?
ΠΡΩ. οὐδὲν τῶν αὐτῶν, ὦ θαυμάσιε Σώκρατες·
PROTARCHUS: Nothing of the kind, my wonderful Socrates.
ὃ μὲν γὰρ σὺ νῦν λέγεις, οὐδὲ ὅσιον εἶναί μοι φαίνεται.
For what you say just now seems to me not even pious.
τὸ δὲ νοῦν πάντα διακοσμεῖν αὐτὰ φάναι καὶ τῆς ὄψεως τοῦ κόσμου καὶ ἡλίου καὶ σελήνης καὶ ἀστέρων καὶ πάσης τῆς περιφορᾶς ἄξιον, καὶ οὐκ ἄλλως ἔγωγʼ ἄν ποτε περὶ αὐτῶν εἴποιμι οὐδʼ ἂν δοξάσαιμι.
But to say that mind orders all things is worthy of the sight of the world, of the sun, the moon, the stars, and the whole revolution; and I would never speak otherwise about them, nor would I ever think so.