§287ΞΕ. οὐ τοίνυν οὐδὲ πρὸς τοῦτο πάντα.
STRANGER: Therefore, not even toward this must we judge everything.
οὔτε γὰρ πρὸς τὴν ἡδονὴν μήκους ἁρμόττοντος οὐδὲν προσδεησόμεθα, πλὴν εἰ πάρεργόν τι·
For indeed we shall not at all require anything of length for the sake of pleasure, except perhaps as a side-matter.
τό τε αὖ πρὸς τὴν τοῦ προβληθέντος ζήτησιν, ὡς ἂν ῥᾷστα καὶ τάχιστα εὕροιμεν, δεύτερον ἀλλʼ οὐ πρῶτον ὁ λόγος ἀγαπᾶν παραγγέλλει, πολὺ δὲ μάλιστα καὶ πρῶτον τὴν μέθοδον αὐτὴν τιμᾶν τοῦ κατʼ εἴδη δυνατὸν εἶναι διαιρεῖν, καὶ δὴ καὶ λόγον, ἄντε παμμήκης λεχθεὶς τὸν ἀκούσαντα εὑρετικώτερον ἀπεργάζηται, τοῦτον σπουδάζειν καὶ τῷ μήκει μηδὲν ἀγανακτεῖν, ἄντʼ αὖ βραχύτερος, ὡσαύτως·
And on the other hand, regarding the inquiry of the proposed problem, as to how we might find it most easily and quickly, our argument commands us to welcome this as second but not first, and much most of all and first to honor the method itself of being able to divide according to forms, and indeed to study a discussion, even if it is spoken at excessive length, if it makes the hearer more inventive, and not to be at all vexed by its length; and likewise, on the other hand, if it is shorter.
ἔτι δʼ αὖ πρὸς τούτοις τὸν περὶ τὰς τοιάσδε συνουσίας ψέγοντα λόγων μήκη καὶ τὰς ἐν κύκλῳ περιόδους οὐκ ἀποδεχόμενον, ὅτι χρὴ τὸν τοιοῦτον μὴ ταχὺ μηδʼ εὐθὺς οὕτω μεθιέναι ψέξαντα μόνον ὡς μακρὰ τὰ λεχθέντα, ἀλλὰ καὶ προσαποφαίνειν οἴεσθαι δεῖν ὡς βραχύτερα ἂν γενόμενα τοὺς συνόντας ἀπηργάζετο διαλεκτικωτέρους καὶ τῆς τῶν ὄντων λόγῳ δηλώσεως εὑρετικωτέρους, τῶν δὲ ἄλλων καὶ πρὸς ἄλλʼ ἄττα ψόγων καὶ ἐπαίνων μηδὲν φροντίζειν μηδὲ τὸ παράπαν ἀκούειν δοκεῖν τῶν τοιούτων λόγων.
Furthermore, in addition to these things, as for one who blames the lengths of discussions in such meetings and does not accept roundabout periods, we must think that such a person should not be dismissed quickly or immediately in this way, having only blamed what was said as long, but he must also think it necessary to show further that, if they had been shorter, they would have made the participants more dialectical and more inventive in the manifestation of things by reason; and as for other praises and blames concerning other matters, we should care nothing for them and seem not to hear such discussions at all.
καὶ τούτων μὲν ἅλις, εἰ καὶ σοὶ ταύτῃ συνδοκεῖ· πρὸς δὲ δὴ τὸν πολιτικὸν ἴωμεν πάλιν, τῆς προρρηθείσης ὑφαντικῆς αὐτῷ φέροντες τὸ παράδειγμα.
And of these things enough, if you also agree in this way; but let us go again toward the statesman, bringing the previously mentioned model of weaving to him.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. καλῶς εἶπες, καὶ ποιῶμεν ἃ λέγεις.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Well said, and let us do as you say.
ΞΕ. οὐκοῦν ἀπό γε τῶν πολλῶν ὁ βασιλεὺς ὅσαι σύννομοι, μᾶλλον δὲ ἀπὸ πασῶν τῶν περὶ τὰς ἀγέλας διακεχώρισται· λοιπαὶ δέ, φαμέν, αἱ κατὰ πόλιν αὐτὴν τῶν τε συναιτίων καὶ τῶν αἰτίων, ἃς πρώτας ἀπʼ ἀλλήλων διαιρετέον.
STRANGER: Therefore, the king has been separated from the many arts that feed together, or rather from all those concerning herds; and there remain, we say, those within the city itself which are contributing causes and direct causes, which we must first divide from each other.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ὀρθῶς.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Correct.
ΞΕ. οἶσθʼ οὖν ὅτι χαλεπὸν αὐτὰς τεμεῖν δίχα;
STRANGER: Do you know, then, that it is difficult to cut them in two?
τὸ δʼ αἴτιον, ὡς οἶμαι, προϊοῦσιν οὐχ ἧττον ἔσται καταφανές.
And the cause, as I think, will be no less clear to us as we proceed.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν χρὴ δρᾶν οὕτως.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Then we must do so.
ΞΕ. κατὰ μέλη τοίνυν αὐτὰς οἷον ἱερεῖον διαιρώμεθα, ἐπειδὴ δίχα ἀδυνατοῦμεν.
STRANGER: Let us then divide them by limbs like a sacrificial animal, since we are unable to do it in two.
δεῖ γὰρ εἰς τὸν ἐγγύτατα ὅτι μάλιστα τέμνειν ἀριθμὸν ἀεί.
For we must always cut into the nearest number as much as possible.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πῶς οὖν ποιῶμεν τὰ νῦν;
YOUNG SOCRATES: How then shall we do now?
ΞΕ. ὥσπερ ἔμπροσθεν, ὁπόσαι παρείχοντο ὄργανα περὶ τὴν ὑφαντικήν, πάσας δήπου τότε ἐτίθεμεν ὡς συναιτίους.
STRANGER: Just as before, as many arts as provided tools for weaving, we surely positioned all of them then as contributing causes.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ναί.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
ΞΕ. καὶ νῦν δὴ ταὐτὸν μὲν τοῦτο, ἔτι δὲ μᾶλλον ἢ τόθʼ ἡμῖν ποιητέον.
STRANGER: And now indeed we must do this same thing, and even more than then.
ὅσαι γὰρ σμικρὸν ἢ μέγα τι δημιουργοῦσι κατὰ πόλιν ὄργανον, θετέον ἁπάσας ταύτας ὡς οὔσας συναιτίους.
For as many arts as produce any tool, small or great, in the city, we must place all of them as being contributing causes.
ἄνευ γὰρ τούτων οὐκ ἄν ποτε γένοιτο πόλις οὐδὲ πολιτική, τούτων δʼ αὖ βασιλικῆς ἔργον τέχνης οὐδέν που θήσομεν.
For without these, a city could never come to be, nor could the statesman's art; yet on the other hand, we shall surely not place any of these as the work of the kingly art.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. οὐ γάρ.
YOUNG SOCRATES: No, indeed.
ΞΕ. καὶ μὲν δὴ χαλεπὸν ἐπιχειροῦμεν δρᾶν ἀποχωρίζοντες τοῦτο ἀπὸ τῶν ἄλλων τὸ γένος· ὅτι γὰρ οὖν τῶν ὄντων ἔστιν ὡς ἑνός γέ τινος ὄργανον εἰπόντα δοκεῖν εἰρηκέναι τι πιθανόν.
STRANGER: And indeed, we are attempting a difficult thing in separating this genus from the others; for to say of whatever of existing things that it is a tool of some one thing seems to be saying something plausible.
ὅμως δὲ ἕτερον αὖ τῶν ἐν πόλει κτημάτων εἴπωμεν τόδε.
Nevertheless, let us speak of this other of the possessions in the city.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τὸ ποῖον;
YOUNG SOCRATES: What sort of thing?
ΞΕ. ὡς οὐκ ἔστι ταύτην τὴν δύναμιν ἔχον.
STRANGER: As not having this power.
οὐ γὰρ ἐπὶ γενέσεως αἰτίᾳ πήγνυται, καθάπερ ὄργανον, ἀλλʼ ἕνεκα τοῦ δημιουργηθέντος σωτηρίας.
For it is not put together for the cause of generation, like a tool, but for the sake of the preservation of what has been produced.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τὸ ποῖον;
YOUNG SOCRATES: What sort of thing?