§263ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ὀρθότατα·
YOUNG SOCRATES: Most rightly.
ἀλλὰ γὰρ τοῦτο αὐτό, ὦ ξένε, πῶς ἄν τις γένος καὶ μέρος ἐναργέστερον γνοίη, ὡς οὐ ταὐτόν ἐστον ἀλλʼ ἕτερον ἀλλήλοιν;
But indeed, stranger, how might one know more clearly this very thing, that a class and a part are not the same, but different from one another?
ΞΕ. ὦ βέλτιστε ἀνδρῶν, οὐ φαῦλον προστάττεις, Σώκρατες.
STRANGER: Best of men, you enjoin no trivial task, Socrates.
ἡμεῖς μὲν καὶ νῦν μακροτέραν τοῦ δέοντος ἀπὸ τοῦ προτεθέντος λόγου πεπλανήμεθα, σὺ δὲ ἔτι πλέον ἡμᾶς κελεύεις πλανηθῆναι.
Even as it is, we have wandered further than is necessary from the proposed argument, and you bid us wander still more.
νῦν μὲν οὖν, ὥσπερ εἰκός, ἐπανίωμεν πάλιν· ταῦτα δὲ εἰς αὖθις κατὰ σχολὴν καθάπερ ἰχνεύοντες μέτιμεν.
Now, therefore, as is reasonable, let us return again; and these things we shall pursue hereafter at leisure, as if tracking them.
οὐ μὴν ἀλλὰ τοῦτό γε αὖ παντάπασιν φύλαξαι, μή ποτε παρʼ ἐμοῦ δόξῃς αὐτὸ ἐναργῶς διωρισμένον ἀκηκοέναι.
However, guard against this completely in turn: do not think you have ever heard this clearly distinguished by me.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τὸ ποῖον;
YOUNG SOCRATES: What kind of thing?
ΞΕ. εἶδός τε καὶ μέρος ἕτερον ἀλλήλων εἶναι.
STRANGER: That form and part are different from one another.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τί μήν;
YOUNG SOCRATES: Why so?
ΞΕ. ὡς εἶδος μὲν ὅταν ᾖ του, καὶ μέρος αὐτὸ ἀναγκαῖον εἶναι τοῦ πράγματος ὅτουπερ ἂν εἶδος λέγηται· μέρος δὲ εἶδος οὐδεμία ἀνάγκη.
STRANGER: That while, whenever there is a form of something, it is also necessarily a part of that thing of whatever it is said to be a form, there is no necessity for a part to be a form.
ταύτῃ με ἢ ʼκείνῃ μᾶλλον, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἀεὶ φάθι λέγειν.
Always declare me to be saying this, Socrates, in this way rather than that.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ταῦτʼ ἔσται.
YOUNG SOCRATES: So it shall be.
ΞΕ. φράσον δή μοι τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο.
STRANGER: Tell me, then, the next thing.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ποῖον;
YOUNG SOCRATES: What kind of thing?
ΞΕ. τὸ τῆς ἀποπλανήσεως ὁπόθεν ἡμᾶς δεῦρʼ ἤγαγεν.
STRANGER: The point from which our wandering led us here.
οἶμαι μὲν γὰρ μάλιστα, ὅθεν ἐρωτηθεὶς σὺ τὴν ἀγελαιοτροφίαν ὅπῃ διαιρετέον εἶπες μάλα προθύμως δύʼ εἶναι ζῴων γένη, τὸ μὲν ἀνθρώπινον, ἕτερον δὲ τῶν ἄλλων συμπάντων θηρίων ἕν.
For I think it was especially from where, when you were asked how herd-rearing is to be divided, you said very eagerly that there are two classes of animals, the human race on the one hand, and another single one consisting of all the other beasts together on the other.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ἀληθῆ.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
ΞΕ. καὶ ἔμοιγε δὴ τότʼ ἐφάνης μέρος ἀφαιρῶν ἡγεῖσθαι καταλιπεῖν τὸ λοιπὸν αὖ πάντων γένος ἕν, ὅτι πᾶσι ταὐτὸν ἐπονομάζειν ἔσχες ὄνομα, θηρία καλέσας.
STRANGER: And indeed to me at that time you seemed, by taking away a part, to believe that you left the remainder as a single class of all of them, because you were able to give the same name to them all, calling them beasts.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ἦν καὶ ταῦτα οὕτως.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That was indeed so, too.
ΞΕ. τὸ δέ γε, ὦ πάντων ἀνδρειότατε, τάχʼ ἄν, εἴ που φρόνιμόν ἐστί τι ζῷον ἕτερον, οἷον δοκεῖ τὸ τῶν γεράνων, ἤ τι τοιοῦτον ἄλλο, ὃ κατὰ ταὐτὰ ἴσως διονομάζει καθάπερ καὶ σύ, γεράνους μὲν ἓν γένος ἀντιτιθὲν τοῖς ἄλλοις ζῴοις καὶ σεμνῦνον αὐτὸ ἑαυτό, τὰ δὲ ἄλλα μετὰ τῶν ἀνθρώπων συλλαβὸν εἰς ταὐτὸ οὐδὲν ἄλλο πλὴν ἴσως θηρία προσείποι. πειραθῶμεν οὖν ἡμεῖς ἐξευλαβεῖσθαι πάνθʼ ὁπόσα τοιαῦτα.
STRANGER: But, most courageous of men, if there is perhaps some other intelligent animal, as the race of cranes seems to be, or some other such creature, which names things in the same way as you do, it would perhaps set up cranes as a single class over against all other animals, glorifying itself, and grouping all the others together with humans into the same category, calling them nothing else, perhaps, than "beasts." Let us, therefore, try to be on our guard against all such things.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πῶς;
YOUNG SOCRATES: How?
ΞΕ. μὴ πᾶν τὸ τῶν ζῴων γένος διαιρούμενοι, ἵνα ἧττον αὐτὰ πάσχωμεν.
STRANGER: By not dividing the whole class of animals at once, so that we may suffer these things less.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. οὐδὲν γὰρ δεῖ.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Indeed, there is no need.
ΞΕ. καὶ γὰρ οὖν καὶ τότε ἡμαρτάνετο ταύτῃ.
STRANGER: And indeed at that time also, the error was made in this way.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τί δή;
YOUNG SOCRATES: Why so?
ΞΕ. τῆς γνωστικῆς ὅσον ἐπιτακτικὸν ἡμῖν μέρος ἦν που τοῦ ζῳοτροφικοῦ γένους, ἀγελαίων μὴν ζῴων.
STRANGER: That part of cognitive science which was commanding for us was somewhere, I suppose, a part of the animal-rearing class—specifically, of herd animals.
ἦ γάρ;
Was it not?
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ναί.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
§264ΞΕ. διῄρητο τοίνυν ἤδη καὶ τότε σύμπαν τὸ ζῷον τῷ τιθασῷ καὶ ἀγρίῳ.
STRANGER: Therefore, even at that time, the whole of animal life had already been divided into the tame and the wild.
τὰ μὲν γὰρ ἔχοντα τιθασεύεσθαι φύσιν ἥμερα προσείρηται, τὰ δὲ μὴ ʼθέλοντα ἄγρια.
For those having a nature to be tamed are called gentle, and those unwilling are called wild.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. καλῶς.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Fine.
ΞΕ. ἣν δέ γε θηρεύομεν ἐπιστήμην, ἐν τοῖς ἡμέροις ἦν τε καὶ ἔστιν, ἐπὶ τοῖς ἀγελαίοις μὴν ζητητέα θρέμμασιν.
STRANGER: And the science which we are hunting for was and is among the gentle ones, and is to be sought in relation to herd-rearing animals.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ναί.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
ΞΕ. μὴ τοίνυν διαιρώμεθα ὥσπερ τότε πρὸς ἅπαντα ἀποβλέψαντες, μηδὲ σπεύσαντες, ἵνα δὴ ταχὺ γενώμεθα πρὸς τῇ πολιτικῇ.
STRANGER: Let us, then, not divide as we did then, looking at everything at once, nor with haste, so that we may quickly arrive at statesmanship.
πεποίηκε γὰρ ἡμᾶς καὶ νῦν παθεῖν τὸ κατὰ τὴν παροιμίαν πάθος.
For it has made us suffer even now the experience in the proverb.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ποῖον;
YOUNG SOCRATES: What kind?
ΞΕ. οὐχ ἡσύχους εὖ διαιροῦντας ἠνυκέναι βραδύτερον.
STRANGER: Not to have finished because of not dividing quietly and well, though more slowly.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. καὶ καλῶς γε, ὦ ξένε, πεποίηκε.
YOUNG SOCRATES: And indeed, stranger, it has done so beautifully.
ΞΕ. ταῦτʼ ἔστω.
STRANGER: Let that be.
πάλιν δʼ οὖν ἐξ ἀρχῆς τὴν κοινοτροφικὴν πειρώμεθα διαιρεῖν· ἴσως γὰρ καὶ τοῦτο ὃ σὺ προθυμῇ διαπεραινόμενος ὁ λόγος αὐτός σοι κάλλιον μηνύσει.
Let us then try again from the beginning to divide collective rearing; for perhaps the argument itself will show this very thing, which you are eager to complete, more beautifully to you.
καί μοι φράζε.
And tell me.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ποῖον δή;
YOUNG SOCRATES: What indeed?
ΞΕ. τόδε, εἴ τινων πολλάκις ἄρα διακήκοας· οὐ γὰρ δὴ προστυχής γε αὐτὸς οἶδʼ ὅτι γέγονας ταῖς ἐν τῷ Νείλῳ τιθασείαις τῶν ἰχθύων καὶ τῶν ἐν ταῖς βασιλικαῖς λίμναις.
STRANGER: This: whether you have perhaps often heard of certain things; for I know that you have not yourself happened upon the tamings of fish in the Nile, or of those in the royal pools.
ἐν μὲν γὰρ κρήναις τάχʼ ἂν ἴσως εἴης ᾐσθημένος.
In fountains, however, you might perhaps have noticed them.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν καὶ ταῦτα τεθέαμαι κἀκεῖνα πολλῶν ἀκήκοα.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Quite so, I have indeed observed those, and I have heard of the others from many.
ΞΕ. καὶ μὴν χηνοβωτίας γε καὶ γερανοβωτίας, εἰ καὶ μὴ πεπλάνησαι περὶ τὰ Θετταλικὰ πεδία, πέπυσαι γοῦν καὶ πιστεύεις εἶναι.
STRANGER: And indeed, as for the rearing of geese and cranes, even if you have not wandered about the Thessalian plains, you have at least heard of them and believe they exist.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τί μήν;
YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course.
ΞΕ. τοῦδʼ ἕνεκά τοι πάντα ἠρώτησα ταῦτα, διότι τῆς τῶν ἀγελαίων τροφῆς ἔστι μὲν ἔνυδρον, ἔστι δὲ καὶ ξηροβατικόν.
STRANGER: I asked all these things for this reason, because of herd-rearing, one part is aquatic, and another is land-walking.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ἔστι γὰρ οὖν.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes, indeed there is.
ΞΕ. ἆρʼ οὖν καὶ σοὶ συνδοκεῖ ταύτῃ δεῖν διχάζειν τὴν κοινοτροφικὴν ἐπιστήμην, ἐφʼ ἑκατέρῳ τούτων τὸ μέρος αὐτῆς ἐπινέμοντας ἑκάτερον, τὸ μὲν ἕτερον ὑγροτροφικὸν ὀνομάζοντας, τὸ δʼ ἕτερον ξηροτροφικόν;
STRANGER: Does it, then, seem good to you also to divide the collective rearing science in this way, assigning to each of these its respective part, calling the one aquatic rearing and the other land rearing?
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ἔμοιγε.
YOUNG SOCRATES: To me, yes.
ΞΕ. καὶ μὴν καὶ τὸ βασιλικὸν οὕτως οὐ ζητήσομεν ὁποτέρας ἐστὶ τῆς τέχνης· δῆλον γὰρ παντί.
STRANGER: And indeed, we shall not have to search for which of the two arts statesmanship belongs to; for that is clear to everyone.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πῶς δʼ οὔ;
YOUNG SOCRATES: How not?
ΞΕ. πᾶς μὲν δὴ τό γε ξηροτροφικὸν τῆς ἀγελαιοτροφίας διέλοιτʼ ἂν φῦλον.
STRANGER: Everyone, then, could divide the land-rearing branch of herd-rearing.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πῶς;
YOUNG SOCRATES: How?
ΞΕ. τῷ πτηνῷ τε καὶ πεζῷ διορισάμενος.
STRANGER: By distinguishing it into the winged and the pedestrian.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ἀληθέστατα.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Most true.
ΞΕ. τί δέ;
STRANGER: What then?
τὸ πολιτικὸν ἦ περὶ τὸ πεζὸν ζητητέον;
Is statesmanship to be sought concerning the walking?
ἢ οὐκ οἴει καὶ τὸν ἀφρονέστατον ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν δοξάζειν οὕτως;
Or do you not think that even, so to speak, the most foolish person would judge thus?
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ἔγωγε.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I do.
ΞΕ. τὴν δὲ πεζονομικήν, καθάπερ ἄρτι τὸν ἀριθμόν, δεῖ τεμνομένην δίχα ἀποφαίνειν.
STRANGER: And the walking-animal rearing, just like number just now, must be shown divided in two.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. δῆλον.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Clear.