§391ΕΡΜ. οὐκ ἔχω, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὅπως χρὴ πρὸς ἃ λέγεις ἐναντιοῦσθαι.
HERMOGENES: Socrates, I do not know how to contradict what you say.
ἴσως μέντοι οὐ ῥᾴδιόν ἐστιν οὕτως ἐξαίφνης πεισθῆναι, ἀλλὰ δοκῶ μοι ὧδε ἂν μᾶλλον πιθέσθαι σοι, εἴ μοι δείξειας ἥντινα φῂς εἶναι τὴν φύσει ὀρθότητα ὀνόματος.
However, perhaps it is not easy to be persuaded so suddenly, but I think I would be more persuaded by you in this way, if you would show me what you say is the natural correctness of a name.
ΣΩ. ἐγὼ μέν, ὦ μακάριε Ἑρμόγενες, οὐδεμίαν λέγω, ἀλλʼ ἐπελάθου γε ὧν ὀλίγον πρότερον ἔλεγον, ὅτι οὐκ εἰδείην ἀλλὰ σκεψοίμην μετὰ σοῦ.
SOCRATES: My blessed Hermogenes, I say there is none, but you have forgotten what I was saying a little earlier, that I did not know but would investigate with you.
νῦν δὲ σκοπουμένοις ἡμῖν, ἐμοί τε καὶ σοί, τοσοῦτον μὲν ἤδη φαίνεται παρὰ τὰ πρότερα, φύσει τέ τινα ὀρθότητα ἔχον εἶναι τὸ ὄνομα καὶ οὐ παντὸς ἀνδρὸς ἐπίστασθαι αὐτὸ πράγματι ὁτῳοῦν θέσθαι·
But now as we are investigating, both you and I, so much already appears compared to what went before, that a name has some correctness by nature, and that it is not the part of every man to know how to establish it for any thing whatsoever.
ἢ οὔ;
Or is it not so?
ΕΡΜ. πάνυ γε.
HERMOGENES: Certainly.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο χρὴ ζητεῖν, εἴπερ ἐπιθυμεῖς εἰδέναι, ἥτις ποτʼ αὖ ἐστιν αὐτοῦ ἡ ὀρθότης.
SOCRATES: Therefore, we must seek after this, if you desire to know, what in turn its correctness actually is.
ΕΡΜ. ἀλλὰ μὴν ἐπιθυμῶ γε εἰδέναι.
HERMOGENES: Indeed, I do desire to know.
ΣΩ. σκόπει τοίνυν.
SOCRATES: Consider, then.
ΕΡΜ. πῶς οὖν χρὴ σκοπεῖν;
HERMOGENES: How then must we consider it?
ΣΩ. ὀρθοτάτη μὲν τῆς σκέψεως, ὦ ἑταῖρε, μετὰ τῶν ἐπισταμένων, χρήματα ἐκείνοις τελοῦντα καὶ χάριτας κατατιθέμενον.
SOCRATES: The most correct way of consideration, my friend, is with those who know, by paying them money and laying down gratitude.
εἰσὶ δὲ οὗτοι οἱ σοφισταί, οἷσπερ καὶ ὁ ἀδελφός σου Καλλίας πολλὰ τελέσας χρήματα σοφὸς δοκεῖ εἶναι.
And these are the sophists, to whom also your brother Callias, having paid much money, seems to be wise.
ἐπειδὴ δὲ οὐκ ἐγκρατὴς εἶ τῶν πατρῴων, λιπαρεῖν χρὴ τὸν ἀδελφὸν καὶ δεῖσθαι αὐτοῦ διδάξαι σε τὴν ὀρθότητα περὶ τῶν τοιούτων ἣν ἔμαθεν παρὰ Πρωταγόρου.
But since you are not in control of your patrimony, you must entreat your brother and beg him to teach you the correctness about such things which he learned from Protagoras.
ΕΡΜ. ἄτοπος μεντἂν εἴη μου, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἡ δέησις, εἰ τὴν μὲν ἀλήθειαν τὴν Πρωταγόρου ὅλως οὐκ ἀποδέχομαι, τὰ δὲ τῇ τοιαύτῃ ἀληθείᾳ ῥηθέντα ἀγαπῴην ὥς του ἄξια.
HERMOGENES: My request would indeed be strange, Socrates, if on the one hand I do not accept Protagoras' "Truth" at all, yet on the other hand I should welcome the things said by such "Truth" as of some worth.
ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ εἰ μὴ αὖ σε ταῦτα ἀρέσκει, παρʼ Ὁμήρου χρὴ μανθάνειν καὶ παρὰ τῶν ἄλλων ποιητῶν.
SOCRATES: But if this in turn does not please you, one must learn from Homer and from the other poets.
ΕΡΜ. καὶ τί λέγει, ὦ Σώκρατες, Ὅμηρος περὶ ὀνομάτων, καὶ ποῦ;
HERMOGENES: And what does Homer say, Socrates, about names, and where?
ΣΩ. πολλαχοῦ· μέγιστα δὲ καὶ κάλλιστα ἐν οἷς διορίζει ἐπὶ τοῖς αὐτοῖς ἅ τε οἱ ἄνθρωποι ὀνόματα καλοῦσι καὶ οἱ θεοί.
SOCRATES: In many places; but the greatest and most beautiful are those in which he distinguishes, for the same things, the names which men call them and those which the gods call them.
ἢ οὐκ οἴει αὐτὸν μέγα τι καὶ θαυμάσιον λέγειν ἐν τούτοις περὶ ὀνομάτων ὀρθότητος;
Or do you not think he says something great and wonderful in these passages about the correctness of names?
δῆλον γὰρ δὴ ὅτι οἵ γε θεοὶ αὐτὰ καλοῦσιν πρὸς ὀρθότητα ἅπερ ἔστι φύσει ὀνόματα·
For it is indeed clear that the gods at least call them in accordance with correctness, which are their natural names.
ἢ σὺ οὐκ οἴει;
Or do you not think so?
ΕΡΜ. εὖ οἶδα μὲν οὖν ἔγωγε, εἴπερ καλοῦσιν, ὅτι ὀρθῶς καλοῦσιν.
HERMOGENES: I, at least, know well that if they call them, they call them correctly.
ἀλλὰ ποῖα ταῦτα λέγεις;
But what kind of things are you speaking of?
ΣΩ. οὐκ οἶσθα ὅτι περὶ τοῦ ποταμοῦ τοῦ ἐν τῇ Τροίᾳ, ὃς ἐμονομάχει τῷ Ἡφαίστῳ,
ὃν Ξάνθον,
φησί,
καλέουσι θεοί, ἄνδρες δὲ Σκάμανδρον;
SOCRATES: Do you not know that concerning the river in Troy, which fought in single combat with Hephaestus, "whom," he says, "the gods call Xanthus, and men Scamander"?
ΕΡΜ. ἔγωγε.
HERMOGENES: I do.
§392ΣΩ. τί οὖν δή;
SOCRATES: What then?
οὐκ οἴει τοῦτο σεμνόν τι εἶναι γνῶναι, ὅπῃ ποτὲ ὀρθῶς ἔχει ἐκεῖνον τὸν ποταμὸν Ξάνθον καλεῖν μᾶλλον ἢ Σκάμανδρον;
Do you not think it is a solemn thing to know in what way it is actually correct to call that river Xanthus rather than Scamander?
εἰ δὲ βούλει, περὶ τῆς ὄρνιθος ἣν λέγει ὅτι—
"
χαλκίδα κικλῄσκουσι θεοί, ἄνδρες δὲ κύμινδιν,
"
φαῦλον ἡγῇ τὸ μάθημα ὅσῳ ὀρθότερόν ἐστι καλεῖσθαι χαλκὶς κυμίνδιδος τῷ αὐτῷ ὀρνέῳ;
Or if you wish, concerning the bird of which he says that— "the gods call it chalcis, but men cymindis," do you think the lesson is trivial, as to how much more correct it is for the same bird to be called chalcis than cymindis?
ἢ τὴν Βατίειάν τε καὶ Μυρίνην, καὶ ἄλλα πολλὰ καὶ τούτου τοῦ ποιητοῦ καὶ ἄλλων;
Or Batieia and Myrine, and many other things of this poet and of others?
ἀλλὰ ταῦτα μὲν ἴσως μείζω ἐστὶν ἢ κατʼ ἐμὲ καὶ σὲ ἐξευρεῖν· ὁ δὲ Σκαμάνδριός τε καὶ ὁ Ἀστυάναξ ἀνθρωπινώτερον διασκέψασθαι, ὡς ἐμοὶ δοκεῖ, καὶ ῥᾷον, ἅ φησιν ὀνόματα εἶναι τῷ τοῦ Ἕκτορος ὑεῖ, τίνα ποτὲ λέγει τὴν ὀρθότητα αὐτῶν.
But these things are perhaps too great for me and you to discover; but "Scamandrius" and "Astyanax" are more human to examine, as it seems to me, and easier, which names he says belong to the son of Hector, to see what correctness he actually says they have.
οἶσθα γὰρ δήπου ταῦτα τὰ ἔπη ἐν οἷς ἔνεστιν ἃ ἐγὼ λέγω.
For you surely know those verses in which the things I say are contained.
ΕΡΜ. πάνυ γε.
HERMOGENES: Certainly.
ΣΩ. πότερον οὖν οἴει Ὅμηρον ὀρθότερον ἡγεῖσθαι τῶν ὀνομάτων κεῖσθαι τῷ παιδί, τὸν
Ἀστυάνακτα
ἢ τὸν
Σκαμάνδριον
;
SOCRATES: Which of the names then do you think Homer believed was more correctly given to the child, "Astyanax" or "Scamandrius"?
ΕΡΜ. οὐκ ἔχω λέγειν.
HERMOGENES: I cannot say.
ΣΩ. ὧδε δὴ σκόπει.
SOCRATES: Consider it in this way.
εἴ τις ἔροιτό σε πότερον οἴει ὀρθότερον καλεῖν τὰ ὀνόματα τοὺς φρονιμωτέρους ἢ τοὺς ἀφρονεστέρους;
If someone should ask you whether you think the wiser or the more foolish establish names more correctly?
ΕΡΜ. δῆλον δὴ ὅτι τοὺς φρονιμωτέρους, φαίην ἄν.
HERMOGENES: Clearly the wiser, I should say.
ΣΩ. πότερον οὖν αἱ γυναῖκες ἐν ταῖς πόλεσιν φρονιμώτεραί σοι δοκοῦσιν εἶναι ἢ οἱ ἄνδρες, ὡς τὸ ὅλον εἰπεῖν γένος;
SOCRATES: Do the women in the cities then seem to you to be wiser, or the men, to speak of the gender as a whole?
ΕΡΜ. οἱ ἄνδρες.
HERMOGENES: The men.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν οἶσθα ὅτι Ὅμηρος τὸ παιδίον τὸ τοῦ Ἕκτορος ὑπὸ τῶν Τρώων φησὶν καλεῖσθαι Ἀστυάνακτα, Σκαμάνδριον δὲ δῆλον ὅτι ὑπὸ τῶν γυναικῶν, ἐπειδὴ οἵ γε ἄνδρες αὐτὸν Ἀστυάνακτα ἐκάλουν;
SOCRATES: Therefore, do you know that Homer says the young child of Hector was called Astyanax by the Trojans, and Scamandrius clearly by the women, since the men called him Astyanax?
ΕΡΜ. ἔοικέ γε.
HERMOGENES: So it seems.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ Ὅμηρος τοὺς Τρῶας σοφωτέρους ἡγεῖτο ἢ τὰς γυναῖκας αὐτῶν;
SOCRATES: Therefore, did Homer also believe the Trojans were wiser than their women?
ΕΡΜ. οἶμαι ἔγωγε.
HERMOGENES: I think so.
ΣΩ. τὸν
Ἀστυάνακτα
ἄρα ὀρθότερον ᾤετο κεῖσθαι τῷ παιδὶ ἢ τὸν
Σκαμάνδριον
;
SOCRATES: Did he then think "Astyanax" was more correctly given to the child than "Scamandrius"?
ΕΡΜ. φαίνεται.
HERMOGENES: So it appears.
ΣΩ. σκοπῶμεν δὴ διὰ τί ποτε.
SOCRATES: Let us consider then why indeed.
ἢ αὐτὸς ἡμῖν κάλλιστα ὑφηγεῖται τὸ διότι;
Or does he himself suggest the reason to us most beautifully?
φησὶν γάρ—
"
οἶος γάρ σφιν ἔρυτο πόλιν καὶ τείχεα μακρά. "
διὰ ταῦτα δή, ὡς ἔοικεν, ὀρθῶς ἔχει καλεῖν τὸν τοῦ σωτῆρος ὑὸν Ἀστυάνακτα τούτου ὃ ἔσῳζεν ὁ πατὴρ αὐτοῦ, ὥς φησιν Ὅμηρος.
For he says: "For he alone guarded for them their city and long walls." Because of these things, as it seems, it is correct to call the son of the savior Astyanax, after that which his father saved, as Homer says.
ΕΡΜ. φαίνεταί μοι.
HERMOGENES: So it appears to me.
ΣΩ. τί δή ποτε;
SOCRATES: Why indeed?
οὐ γάρ πω οὐδʼ αὐτὸς ἔγωγε μανθάνω·
For as yet, not even I myself understand.
ὦ Ἑρμόγενες, σὺ δὲ μανθάνεις;
Hermogenes, do you understand?
ΕΡΜ. μὰ Δίʼ οὐκ ἔγωγε.
HERMOGENES: No, by Zeus, I do not.