§327καταστάσεώς γʼ ἕνεκα τῆς πολιτείας διερευνᾶν, καίτοι κἀνταῦθά τις ἂν ἔχοι ὑπολαβεῖν αὐτῷ, τί δʼ ἐστὶ τοιοῦτον; εἰ μὲν γὰρ ὅλως ἔμελλες χρήσεσθαι τῷ ποιητῇ, χρῆν ἐξαλείφειν ἅ γε μὴ προσίεσο· εἰ δὲ ἁπλῶς ἐκπέμπεις αὐτὸν καὶ οὐδέσιν οὐδὲ ὧν ἐπαινεῖς ἐᾷς ὁμιλεῖν τὴν σαυτοῦ πόλιν, πράγματα σαυτῷ παρέχεις, τὰ μὲν ἐξαίρων, τὰ δὲ ἐγκαταλείπων.
As for examining them for the sake of the constitution of the state—and yet, even here someone might be able to answer him: 'What is such a thing?' For if you were going to employ the poet at all, you ought to have expunged those things which you did not accept; but if you simply banish him and do not allow your city to associate with any of the things you praise, you are causing trouble for yourself, taking out some things and leaving others behind.
δῶμεν οὖν, εἰ βούλεται, ἡδύσματος ἕνεκα τῶν λόγων αὐτῷ καὶ διατριβῆς ταῦτʼ εἰρῆσθαι.
Let us grant then, if he wishes, that these things were said by him for the sake of seasoning the arguments and for pastime.
ἢ δεῖ τοῖς πεπολιτευμένοις ἅπασιν αὖθις ἐπʼ αὐτὸν ἐπανόδου;
Or is there need of a return to him again for all those who have engaged in politics?
ἆρʼ οὐ φιλοτιμία λαμπρά;
Is it not a brilliant ambition?
ἤδη γὰρ ἀποκαλύψας ἐγὼ λέγω.
For now I speak openly.
ἐκ τῆς Πολιτείας
ὦ φίλε Ὅμηρε, εἴπερ μὴ τρίτος ἀπὸ τῆς ἀληθείας εἶ ἀρετῆς πέρι εἰδώλου δημιουργὸς, ὃν δὴ μιμητὴν ὡρισάμεθα, ἀλλὰ καὶ δεύτερος, καὶ οἷός τε ἦσθα γιγνώσκειν ὁποῖα ἐπιτηδεύματα βελτίους ἀνθρώπους ἢ χείρους ποιεῖ ἰδίᾳ καὶ δημοσίᾳ, λέγε ἡμῖν, τίς τῶν πόλεων διὰ σὲ βέλτιον ᾤκησεν, ὥσπερ διὰ Λυκοῦργον Λακεδαιμόνιοι καὶ διʼ ἄλλους πολλοὺς πολλαὶ μεγάλαι τε καὶ σμικραί;
From the Republic: 'Dear Homer, if you are not third from the truth concerning virtue, a maker of an image, whom indeed we defined as an imitator, but even second, and were able to know what kind of pursuits make men better or worse in private and in public, tell us, which of the cities was better governed because of you, as the Lacedaemonians were because of Lycurgus, and many other cities, both great and small, because of many others?
σὲ δὲ τίς αἰτιᾶται πόλις νομοθέτην γεγονέναι καὶ σφᾶς ὠφεληκέναι;
And which city credits you with having become a legislator and having benefited them?
Χαρώνδαν μὲν γὰρ Ἰταλία καὶ Σικελία καὶ ἡμεῖς Σόλωνα, σὲ δὲ τίς ἕξει τινὰ εἰπεῖν; οὐκ οἶμαί γε, ἔφη ὁ Γλαύκων· οὔκουν λέγεταί γε οὐδʼ ὑπʼ αὐτῶν Ὁμηριδῶν. ἀλλὰ δὴ πόλεμος ἐπὶ Ὁμήρου ὑπʼ ἐκείνου ἄρχοντος ἢ συμβουλεύοντος εὖ πολεμηθεὶς μνημονεύεται; οὐδείς. ἀλλʼ οἷα δὴ εἰς τὰ ἔργα σοφοῦ ἀνδρὸς πολλαὶ ἐπίνοιαι καὶ εὐμήχανοι εἰς τέχνας, ἤ τινες ἄλλαι πράξεις λέγονται, ὥσπερ αὖ Θάλεω πέρι τοῦ Μιλησίου καὶ Ἀναχάρσιος τοῦ Σκύθου; οὐδαμῶς τοιοῦτον οὐδέν. ἀλλὰ δὴ εἰ μὴ δημοσίᾳ, ἰδίᾳ τισὶν ἡγεμὼν παιδείας ζῶν αὐτὸς λέγεται Ὅμηρος γενέσθαι, οἳ ἐκεῖνον ἠγάπων ἐπὶ συνουσίᾳ καὶ τοῖς ὑστέροις ὁδόν τινα παρέδοσαν βίου Ὁμηρικὴν, ὥσπερ Πυθαγόρας αὐτός τε ὑπερβαλλόντως ἐπὶ τούτῳ ἠγαπήθη καὶ οἱ ὕστερον ἔτι νῦν τρόπον τὸν αὐτὸν §328ἐπονομάζοντες τοῦ βίου διαφανεῖς πη δοκοῦσιν εἶναι ἐν τοῖς ἄλλοις;
For Italy and Sicily credit Charondas, and we credit Solon; but who will be able to speak of anyone for you?' 'I think not,' said Glaucon; 'at any rate, it is not said even by the Homerids themselves.' 'But indeed, is any war in Homer's time remembered as having been well waged under his leadership or advice?' 'None.' 'But are many inventions and ingenious devices for the arts, or any other such deeds, reported of him, as befits the works of a wise man, as on the other hand are told of Thales the Milesian and Anacharsis the Scythian?' 'Nothing of the kind at all.' 'But indeed, if not publicly, is Homer himself said to have been during his life a leader of education in private for certain people, who loved him for his companionship and handed down to posterity a certain Homeric way of life, just as Pythagoras himself was exceedingly loved for this, and his followers even now, naming their way of life in the same manner, seem to be in some way distinguished among others?' 'Again,' he said, 'nothing of the kind is reported.
οὐδʼ αὖ, ἔφη, τοιοῦτον· οὐδὲν λέγεται. ὁ γὰρ Κρεόφυλος, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἴσως, ὁ τοῦ Ὁμήρου ἑταῖρος, ἔτι πρὸς παιδιὰν φανείη, εἰ τὰ λεγόμενα περὶ Ὁμήρου ἀληθῆ. λέγεται γὰρ οὖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ.
For Creophylus, Socrates, the companion of Homer, would perhaps appear even more of a laughing-stock, if the things said about Homer are true.' 'Yes, so it is said,' I replied.
ἀλλʼ οἴει, ὦ Γλαύκων, εἰ τῷ ὄντι οἷός τε ἦν παιδεύειν ἀνθρώπους καὶ βελτίους ἀπεργάζεσθαι Ὅμηρος, ἅτε περὶ τούτων οὐ μιμεῖσθαι, ἀλλὰ γιγνώσκειν δυνάμενος, οὐκ ἄρʼ ἂν πολλοὺς ἑταίρους ἐποιήσατο καὶ ἐτιμᾶτο καὶ ἠγαπᾶτο ὑπʼ αὐτῶν;
'But do you think, Glaucon, if Homer were really able to educate men and make them better, being capable of knowing and not merely imitating about these things, that he would not then have made many companions and been honored and loved by them?
ἀλλὰ Πρωταγόρας μὲν ἄρα ὁ Ἀβδηρίτης καὶ Πρόδικος ὁ Κεῖος καὶ ἄλλοι πάμπολλοι δύνανται τοῖς ἐφʼ αὑτῶν παριστάναι, ἰδίᾳ ξυγγιγνόμενοι, ὡς οὔτε πόλιν οὔτε οἰκίαν τὴν ἑαυτῶν διοικεῖν οἷοί τʼ ἔσονται, ἐὰν μὴ σφεῖς αὐτῶν τῆς οἰκίας ἐπιστατήσωσι, καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ σοφίᾳ οὕτω σφόδρα φιλοῦνται ὥστε μόνον οὐκ ἐπὶ τῆς κεφαλῆς περιφέρουσιν αὐτοὺς οἱ ἑταῖροι. Ὅμηρον δʼ ἄρα οἱ ἐπʼ ἐκείνου, εἴπερ οἷός τʼ ἦν πρὸς ἀρετὴν ὀνίναι ἀνθρώπους, καὶ Ἡσίοδον ῥαψῳδεῖν ἂν περιιόντας ἂν εἴων, καὶ οὐ μᾶλλον ἂν αὐτῶν ἀντείχοντο ἢ τοῦ χρυσοῦ καὶ ἠνάγκαζον παρὰ σφίσιν οἴκοι εἶναι, ἢ εἰ μὴ ἔπειθον, αὐτοὶ ἂν ἐπαιδαγώγουν ὅπη ἦσαν, ἕως ἱκανῶς παιδείας μεταλάβοιεν; παντάπασιν, ἔφη, δοκεῖς μοι, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἀληθῆ λέγειν. οὐκοῦν τιθῶμεν ἀπὸ Ὁμήρου ἀρξάμενοι πάντας τοὺς ποιητικοὺς μιμητὰς εἰδώλων ἀρετῆς εἶναι καὶ τῶν ἄλλων περὶ ὧν ποιοῦσιν ἀληθείας οὐχ ἅπτεσθαι; ταῦτα, ὦ πρὸς τῶν θεῶν, τίνας τὰς ἀνάγκας ἢ τίνα τὴν εὐπρέπειαν ἔχει;
But whereas Protagoras of Abdera and Prodicus of Ceos and many others can convince their contemporaries, by associating with them privately, that they will not be able to manage either their own city or house unless they themselves supervise their education, and for this wisdom they are so exceedingly loved that their companions all but carry them about on their heads; would the contemporaries of Homer, if he had been able to benefit men in respect to virtue, and of Hesiod, have allowed them to go about rhapsodizing, and would they not rather have clung to them more than to gold, and compelled them to stay with them at home, or, if they did not persuade them, would they not themselves have followed them wherever they went, until they had sufficiently partaken of education?' 'You seem to me, Socrates,' he said, 'to speak the absolute truth.' 'Shall we then establish, beginning from Homer, that all the poetic imitators are imitators of images of virtue and of the other things about which they write, and do not touch the truth?' What necessity, by the gods, or what decency do these things have?
τίς ἀνέξεται Χαρώνδαν πρὸ Ὁμήρου ταττόμενον καὶ Πρωταγόραν καὶ Πρόδικον καὶ ἄλλους παμπόλλους;
Who will tolerate Charondas being ranked before Homer, and Protagoras, and Prodicus, and very many others?
ὁ δὲ αὐτὸς οὗτος Πρόδικος ἐν τοῖς αὐτοῦ πολὺ κατάκειται μάλα γελοίως καὶ ὁ Πρωταγόρας εἰς τὸν Ἱππίαν παραβλέπει καὶ ὁ Ἱππίας ληρεῖ.
And yet this same Prodicus in his own writings lies down very ridiculously, and Protagoras looks askance at Hippias, and Hippias talks nonsense.
τί ταῦτα συντελεῖ, φαίη τις ἂν, τοῖς θαυμαστοῖς αὐτοῦ δόγμασιν;
What do these things contribute, someone might say, to his wonderful doctrines?
ἀλλʼ
But...