§2.1264aδεῖ δὲ μηδὲ τοῦτο αὐτὸ ἀγνοεῖν, ὅτι χρὴ προσέχειν τῷ πολλῷ χρόνῳ καὶ τοῖς πολλοῖς ἔτεσιν, ἐν οἷς οὐκ ἂν ἔλαθεν, εἰ ταῦτα καλῶς εἶχεν·
And we must not fail to know this very thing, that one ought to pay attention to the long time and the many years, in which it would not have remained unnoticed if these things were good.
πάντα γὰρ σχεδὸν εὕρηται μέν, ἀλλὰ τὰ μὲν οὐ συνῆκται, τοῖς δʼ οὐ χρῶνται γινώσκοντες.
For almost all things have indeed been discovered, but some have not been gathered together, and others people do not use although they know them.
μάλιστα δʼ ἂν γένοιτο φανερὸν εἴ τις τοῖς ἔργοις ἴδοι τὴν τοιαύτην πολιτείαν κατασκευαζομένην·
And this would become most manifest if one were to see such a constitution being actually constructed in practice.
οὐ γὰρ δυνήσεται μὴ μερίζων αὐτὰ καὶ χωρίζων ποιῆσαι τὴν πόλιν, τὰ μὲν εἰς συσσίτια τὰ δὲ εἰς φατρίας καὶ φυλάς.
For he will not be able to make the city without dividing and separating it, some into common meals, and others into phratries and tribes.
ὥστε οὐδὲν ἄλλο συμβήσεται νενομοθετημένον πλὴν μὴ γεωργεῖν τοὺς φύλακας· ὅπερ καὶ νῦν Λακεδαιμόνιοι ποιεῖν ἐπιχειροῦσιν.
So that nothing else will turn out to have been legislated except that the guardians are not to farm, which is just what the Lacedaemonians even now attempt to do.
οὐ μὴν ἀλλʼ οὐδὲ ὁ τρόπος τῆς ὅλης πολιτείας τίς ἔσται τοῖς κοινωνοῦσιν, οὔτʼ εἴρηκεν ὁ Σωκράτης οὔτε ῥᾴδιον εἰπεῖν.
However, as to what the manner of the whole constitution will be for those who participate in it, Socrates has neither said, nor is it easy to say.
καίτοι σχεδὸν τό γε πλῆθος τῆς πόλεως τὸ τῶν ἄλλων πολιτῶν γίνεται πλῆθος, περὶ ὧν οὐδὲν διώρισται, πότερον καὶ τοῖς γεωργοῖς κοινὰς εἶναι δεῖ τὰς κτήσεις ἢ καὶ καθʼ ἕκαστον ἰδίας, ἔτι δὲ καὶ γυναῖκας καὶ παῖδας ἰδίους ἢ κοινούς.
And yet almost the multitude of the city becomes the multitude of the other citizens, concerning whom nothing has been defined, whether for the farmers also property must be common or private for each individual, and further whether their wives and children are to be private or common.
εἰ μὲν γὰρ τὸν αὐτὸν τρόπον κοινὰ πάντα πάντων, τί διοίσουσιν οὗτοι ἐκείνων τῶν φυλάκων;
For if indeed everything is common to all in the same manner, how will these differ from those guardians?
ἢ τί πλεῖον αὐτοῖς ὑπομένουσι τὴν ἀρχὴν αὐτῶν, ἢ τί μαθόντες ὑπομενοῦσι τὴν ἀρχήν, ἐὰν μή τι σοφίζωνται τοιοῦτον οἷον Κρῆτες;
Or what more will there be for them in enduring their rule, or what is their reason for enduring the rule, unless they use some such artifice as the Cretans?
ἐκεῖνοι γὰρ τἆλλα ταὐτὰ τοῖς δούλοις ἐφέντες μόνον ἀπειρήκασι τὰ γυμνάσια καὶ τὴν τῶν ὅπλων κτῆσιν.
For those, while permitting other things in the same way to their slaves, have only forbidden them the gymnasia and the possession of arms.
εἰ δέ, καθάπερ ἐν ταῖς ἄλλαις πόλεσι, καὶ παρʼ ἐκείνοις ἔσται τὰ τοιαῦτα, τίς ὁ τρόπος ἔσται τῆς κοινωνίας;
But if, just as in other cities, such things are to exist among them, what will be the manner of their community?
ἐν μιᾷ γὰρ πόλει δύο πόλεις ἀναγκαῖον εἶναι, καὶ ταύτας ὑπεναντίας ἀλλήλαις.
For in one city it is necessary that there be two cities, and these contrary to one another.
ποιεῖ γὰρ τοὺς μὲν φύλακας οἷον φρουρούς, τοὺς δὲ γεωργοὺς καὶ τοὺς τεχνίτας καὶ τοὺς ἄλλους πολίτας· ἐγκλήματα δὲ καὶ δίκαι, καὶ ὅσα ἄλλα ταῖς πόλεσιν ὑπάρχειν φησὶ κακά, πάνθʼ ὑπάρξει καὶ τούτοις.
For he makes the guardians like a garrison, and the farmers, artisans, and other citizens; and complaints, lawsuits, and all the other evils which he says exist in cities, will all exist among these too.
καίτοι λέγει ὁ Σωκράτης ὡς οὐ πολλῶν δεήσονται νομίμων διὰ τὴν παιδείαν, οἷον ἀστυνομικῶν καὶ ἀγορανομικῶν καὶ τῶν ἄλλων τῶν τοιούτων, ἀποδιδοὺς μόνον τὴν παιδείαν τοῖς φύλαξιν.
And yet Socrates says that because of their education they will not need many regulations, such as those of police, market, and other such things, though he attributes the education only to the guardians.
ἔτι δὲ κυρίους ποιεῖ τῶν κτημάτων τοὺς γεωργοὺς τοὺς ἀποφορὰν φέροντας· ἀλλὰ πολὺ μᾶλλον εἰκὸς εἶναι χαλεποὺς καὶ φρονημάτων πλήρεις, ἢ τὰς παρʼ ἐνίοις εἱλωτείας τε καὶ πενεστείας καὶ δουλείας.
Furthermore, he makes the farmers who pay tribute the masters of the property; but it is likely that they will be much more difficult and full of pride than the Helots, Penestae, and slaves among some peoples.
ἀλλὰ γὰρ εἴτʼ ἀναγκαῖα ταῦθʼ ὁμοίως εἴτε μή, νῦν γε οὐδὲν διώρισται.
However, whether these things are equally necessary or not, nothing has now been defined.
καὶ περὶ τῶν ἐχομένων τίς ἡ τούτων τε πολιτεία καὶ παιδεία καὶ νόμοι τίνες.
And also concerning the connected matters, what is the constitution and education of these people, and what laws they will have.
ἔστι δʼ οὔθʼ εὑρεῖν ῥᾴδιον, οὔτε τὸ διαφέρον μικρὸν, τὸ ποιούς τινας εἶναι τούτους πρὸς τὸ σῴζεσθαι τὴν τῶν φυλάκων κοινωνίαν.
And it is neither easy to find, nor is the difference a small one, as to what kind of people these should be for the preservation of the community of the guardians.