§4.4#2ἤδη τοίνυν φανερὸν ἐκ
τούτων τί ἐστιν ὁ τόπος.
From these considerations, then, it is already clear what place is.
σχεδὸν γὰρ τέτταρά ἐστιν ὧν ἀνάγκη τὸν τόπον ἕν τι εἶναι· ἢ γὰρ μορφὴ ἢ ὕλη ἢ διάστημά τι τὸ μεταξὺ τῶν ἐσχάτων, ἢ τὰ ἔσχατα εἰ μὴ ἔστι μηδὲν διάστημα παρὰ τὸ τοῦ ἐγγιγνομένου σώματος μέγεθος.
For there are, we may say, four things of which place must be one: either shape, or matter, or some extension between the extremities, or the extremities, if there is no extension besides the magnitude of the body that comes to be in it.
τούτων δʼ ὅτι οὐκ ἐνδέχεται τὰ τρία εἶναι, φανερόν·
And that it cannot be three of these is clear.
ἀλλὰ διὰ μὲν τὸ περιέχειν δοκεῖ ἡ μορφὴ εἶναι· ἐν ταὐτῷ γὰρ τὰ ἔσχατα τοῦ περιέχουτος καὶ τοῦ περιεχομένου.
But because of its containing, shape is thought to be place; for the extremities of the container and of the contained are in the same.
ἔστι μὲν οὖν ἄμφω πέρατα, ἀλλʼ οὐ τοῦ αὐτοῦ, ἀλλὰ τὸ μὲν εἶδος τοῦ πράγματος, ὁ δὲ τόπος τοῦ περιέχοντος σώματος.
Both, then, are limits, but not of the same thing: rather, form is of the thing, while place is of the containing body.
διὰ δὲ τὸ μεταβάλλειν πολλάκις μένοντος τοῦ περιέχοντος τὸ περιεχόμενον καὶ διηρημένον, οἷον ἐξ ἀγγείου ὕδωρ, τὸ μεταξὺ εἶναί τι δοκεῖ διάστημα, ὡς ὄν τι παρὰ τὸ σῶμα τὸ μεθιστάμενον.
And because the contained and divided thing often changes while the container remains, as water does out of a vessel, the extension between is thought to be something, as if it were something besides the body that is shifted.
τὸ δʼ οὐκ ἔστιν, ἀλλὰ τὸ τυχὸν ἐμπίπτει σῶμα τῶν μεθισταμένων καὶ ἅπτεσθαι πεφυκότων.
But this is not so; rather, any body that happens to be there of those that shift and are of a nature to touch enters.
εἰ δʼ ἦν τι διάστημα τὸ πεφυκὸς καὶ μένον, ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ ἄπειροι ἂν ἦσαν τόποι (μεθισταμένου γὰρ τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ τοῦ ἀέρος ταὐτὸ ποιήσει τὰ μόρια πάντα ἐν τῷ ὅλῳ ὅπερ ἅπαν τὸ ὕδωρ ἐν τῷ ἀγγείῳ)·
And if there were any extension that exists and remains by nature, there would be infinite places in the same; for when water and air shift, all the parts will do the same in the whole as all the water does in the vessel.
ἅμα δὲ καὶ ὁ τόπος ἔσται μεταβάλλων· ὥστʼ ἔσται τοῦ τόπου τʼ ἄλλος τόπος, καὶ πολλοὶ τόποι ἅμα ἔσονται.
And at the same time the place also will be shifting; so that there will be another place of the place, and many places will exist at the same time.
οὐκ ἔστι δὲ ἄλλος ὁ τόπος τοῦ μορίου, ἐν ᾧ κινεῖται, ὅταν ὅλον τὸ ἀγγεῖον μεθίστηται, ἀλλʼ ὁ αὐτός· ἐν ᾧ γὰρ ἔστιν, ἀντιμεθίσταται ὁ ἀὴρ καὶ τὸ ὕδωρ ἢ τὰ μόρια τοῦ ὕδατος, ἀλλʼ οὐκ ἐν ᾧ γίγνονται τόπῳ, ὃς μέρος ἐστὶ τοῦ τόπου ὅς ἐστι τόπος ὅλου τοῦ οὐρανοῦ.
But the place of the part in which it moves when the whole vessel is shifted is not another, but the same; for in that in which they are, the air and the water, or the parts of the water, are replaced, but not in the place in which they come to be, which is a part of the place which is the place of the whole heaven.
καὶ ἡ ὕλη δὲ δόξειεν ἂν εἶναι τόπος, εἴ γε ἐν ἠρεμοῦντί τις σκοποίη καὶ μὴ κεχωρισμένῳ ἀλλὰ συνεχεῖ.
And matter also might seem to be place, if one were to consider it in a stationary and not separate but continuous thing.
ὥσπερ γὰρ εἰ ἀλλοιοῦται, ἔστι τι ὃ νῦν μὲν λευκὸν πάλαι δὲ μέλαν, καὶ νῦν μὲν σκληρὸν πάλαι δὲ μαλακόν (διό φαμεν εἶναί τι τὴν ὕλην), οὕτω καὶ ὁ τόπος διὰ τοιαύτης τινὸς εἶναι δοκεῖ φαντασίας, πλὴν ἐκεῖνο μὲν διότι ὃ ἦν ἀήρ, τοῦτο νῦν ὕδωρ, ὁ δὲ τόπος ὅτι οὗ ἦν ἀήρ, ἐνταῦθʼ ἔστι νῦν ὕδωρ.
For just as, if it is altered, there is something which is now white but was previously black, and now hard but was previously soft (which is why we say matter is something), so also place is thought to exist through a similar sort of appearance, except that in the former case it is because what was air is now water, whereas in the case of place it is because where there was air, there is now water.
ἀλλʼ ἡ μὲν ὕλη, ὥσπερ ἐλέχθη ἐν τοῖς πρότερον, οὔτε χωριστὴ τοῦ πράγματος οὔτε περιέχει, ὁ δὲ τόπος ἄμφω.
But matter, as was said in our previous discussions, is neither separable from the thing nor contains it, whereas place does both.
εἰ τοίνυν μηδὲν τῶν τριῶν
ὁ τόπος ἐστίν, μήτε τὸ εἶδος μήτε ἡ ὕλη μήτε διάστημά τι ἀεὶ ὑπάρχον ἕτερον παρὰ τὸ τοῦ πράγματος τοῦ μεθισταμένου, ἀνάγκη τὸν τόπον εἶναι τὸ λοιπὸν τῶν τεττάρων, τὸ πέρας τοῦ περιέχοντος σώματος καθʼ ὃ συνάπτει τῷ περιεχομένῳ.
If, then, place is none of the three—neither form, nor matter, nor some always existing extension other than that of the shifting thing—it is necessary that place is the remaining one of the four: the limit of the containing body in respect of which it touches the contained.
λέγω δὲ τὸ περιεχόμενον σῶμα τὸ κινητὸν κατὰ φοράν.
And I mean by the contained body that which is movable in respect of locomotion.
δοκεῖ δὲ μέγα τι εἶναι καὶ χαλεπὸν ληφθῆναι ὁ τόπος διά τε τὸ παρεμφαίνεσθαι τὴν ὕλην καὶ τὴν μορφήν, καὶ διὰ τὸ ἐν ἠρεμοῦντι τῷ περιέχοντι γίγνεσθαι τὴν μετάστασιν τοῦ φερομένου· ἐνδέχεσθαι γὰρ φαίνεται εἶναι διάστημα μεταξὺ ἄλλο τι τῶν κινουμένων μεγεθῶν.
And place is thought to be something great and difficult to grasp, both because of the co-appearance of matter and shape, and because the shift of the carried body occurs in a stationary container; for it seems to be possible that there is another extension between the moving magnitudes.
συμβάλλεται δέ τι καὶ ὁ ἀὴρ δοκῶν ἀσώματος εἶναι· φαίνεται γὰρ οὐ μόνον τὰ πέρατα τοῦ ἀγγείου· εἶναι ὁ τόπος, ἀλλὰ καὶ τὸ μεταξὺ ὡς κενὸν.
And the air also contributes something, since it seems to be incorporeal; for not only the limits of the vessel seem to be the place, but also the space between as a void.
ἔστι δʼ ὥσπερ τὸ ἀγγεῖον τόπος μεταφορητός, οὕτως καὶ ὁ τόπος ἀγγεῖον ἀμετακίνητον.
And just as a vessel is a portable place, so place is an immovable vessel.
διὸ ὅταν μὲν ἐν κινουμένῳ κινῆται καὶ μεταβάλλῃ τὸ ἐντός, οἶον ἐν ποταμῷ πλοῖον, ὡς’ ἀγγείῳ χρῆται μᾶλλον ἢ τόπῳ τῷ περιέχοντι.
Therefore, when a thing moves and changes within a moving container, as a boat in a river, it uses the container as a vessel rather than as a place.
βούλεται δʼ ἀκίνητος εἶναι ὁ τόπος· διὸ ὁ πᾶς μᾶλλον ποταμὸς τόπος, ὅτι ἀκίνητος ὁ πᾶς.
But place wishes to be immovable; therefore the whole river is rather the place, because the whole is immovable.
ὥστε τὸ τοῦ περιέχοντος πέρας ἀκίνητον πρῶτον, τοῦτʼ ἔστιν ὁτόπος.
So the primary immovable limit of the container—this is place.
καὶ διὰ τοῦτο τὸ μέσον τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καὶ τὸ ἔσχα· τον τὸ πρὸς. ἡμᾶς τῆς κύκλῳ φορᾶς δοκεῖ εἶναι τὸ μὲν ἄνω τὸ δὲ κάτω μάλιστα πᾶσι κυρίως, ὅτι τὸ μὲν αἰεὶ μένει, τοῦ δὲ κύκλῳ τὸ ἔσχατον ὡσαύτως ἔχον μένει.
And for this reason the center of the heaven and the extremity towards us of the circular motion seem to be, for all, the one "down" and the other "up" in the most proper sense; because the one always remains, and the extremity of the circular motion remains in the same state.
ὥστʼ ἐπεὶ τὸ μὲν κοῦφον τὸ ἄνω φερόμενόν ἐστι φύσει, τὸ δὲ βαρὺ τὸ κάτω, τὸ μὲν πρὸς τὸ μέσον περιέχον πέρας κάτω ἐστίν, καὶ αὐτὸ τὸ μέσον, τὸ δὲ πρὸς τὸ ἔσχατον ἄνω, καὶ αὐτὸ τὸ ἔσχατον·
So, since the light is that which is carried upwards by nature, and the heavy downwards, the containing limit towards the center is "down" (and the center itself), and that towards the extremity is "up" (and the extremity itself).
καὶ διὰ τοῦτο δοκεῖ ἐπίπεδόν τι εἶναι καὶ οἶον ἀγγεῖον ὁ τόπος καὶ περιέχον.
And for this reason place is thought to be a sort of surface, and like a vessel, and containing.
ἔτι ἅμα τῷ πράγματι ὁ τόπος· ἅμα γὰρ τῷ πεπερασμένῳ τὰ πέρατα.
Further, place is together with the thing; for the limits are together with what is limited.