§1.1010 Τούτων δὲ διωρισμένων λέγωμεν μετὰ ταῦτα πότερον ἀγένητος ἢ γενητὸς καὶ ἄφθαρτος ἢ φθαρτός, διεξελθόντες πρότερον τὰς τῶν ἄλλων ὑπολήψεις· αἱ γὰρ τῦν ἐναντίων ἀποδείξεις ἀπορίαι περὶ τῶν ἐναντίων εἰσίν.
10 These things having been defined, let us speak next whether it is ungenerated or generated, and incorruptible or corruptible, having first gone through the assumptions of others; for the demonstrations of the contrary views are difficulties concerning the contrary views.
ἅμα δὲ καὶ μᾶλλον ἂν εἴη πιστὰ τὰ μέλλοντα λεχθήσεσθαι προακηκοόσι τὰ τῶν ἀμφισβητούντων λόγων δικαιώματα.
And at the same time, what is going to be said would be more credible to those who have previously heard the justifications of the disputing arguments.
τὸ γὰρ ἐρήμην καταδικάζεσθαι δοκεῖν ἧττον ἂν?? μῖν ὑπάρχοι· καὶ γὰρ δεῖ διαιτητὰς ἀλλʼ οὐκ ἀντιδίκους εἶναι τοὺς μέλλοντας τἀληθὲς κρίνειν ἱκανῶς.
For the appearance of condemning in default would less apply to us; for those who are to judge the truth adequately must be arbitrators and not adversaries.
γενόμενον μὲν οὖν ἅπαντες εἶναί φασιν, ἀλλά γενόμενον οἱ μὲν ἀΐδιον, οἱ δὲ φθαρτὸν ὥσπερ ὁτιοῦν ἄλλο τῶν συνισταμένων, οἱ δʼ ἐναλλάξ ὁτὲ μὲν οὕτως ὁτὲ δὲ ἄλλως ἔχειν φθειρόμενον, καὶ τοῦτο ἀεὶ διατελεῖν οὕτως, ὥσπερ Ἐμπεδοκλῆς ὁ Ἀκραγαντῖνος καὶ Ἡράκλειτος ὁ Ἐφέσιος.
Now, all indeed say that it has been generated; but though generated, some say it is eternal, others corruptible like any other of the things that are constructed, and others that it is alternately now in this way, now in another way, being destroyed, and that it continues thus always, as Empedocles of Acragas and Heraclitus of Ephesus say.
τὸ μὲν οὖν γενέσθαι μὲν ἀΐδιον δʼ ὅμως εἶναι φάναι τῶν ἀδυνάτων.
To say, then, that it has been generated and yet is nevertheless eternal is among the impossible things.
μόνα γὰρ ταῦτα θετέον εὐλόγως ὅσα ἐπὶ πολλῶν ἢ πάντων ὁρῶμεν ὑπάρχοντα, περὶ δὲ τούτου συμβαίνει τοὐναντίον· ἅπαντα γὰρ τὰ γινόμενα καὶ φθειρόμενα φαίνεται.
For we must reasonably assume only those things which we see belonging to many or to all cases, but concerning this the contrary happens; for all things that come to be are seen to be destroyed as well.
ἔτι δὲ τὸ μὴ ἔχον ἀρχὴν τοῦ ὡδὶ ἔχειν, ἀλλ᾿ ἀδύνατον ἄλλως ἔχειν πρότερον τὸν ἅπαντα αἰῶνα ἀδύνατον καὶ μεταβάλλειν· ἔσται γάρ τι αἴτιον, ὃ εἰ ὑπῆρχε πρότερον, δυνατὸν ἂν ἦν ἄλλως ἔχειν τὸ ἀδύνατον ἄλλως ἔχειν.
Moreover, that which has no beginning of being in this way, but which was impossible to be otherwise during all previous eternity, is also impossible to change; for there will be some cause, which, if it existed previously, would have made it possible for that which is impossible to be otherwise to be otherwise.
εἰ δὲ πρότερον ἐξ ἄλλως ἐχόντων συνέστη ὁ κόσμος, εἰ μὲν ἀεὶ οὕτως ἐχόντων καὶ ἀδυνάτων ἄλλως ἔχειν, οὐκ ἂν ἐγένετο.
And if the world was previously constructed from things that were in another state, if indeed they were always in that state and impossible to be otherwise, it would not have come to be.
εἰ δὲ γέγονεν, ἀνάγκη δηλονότι κἀκεῖνα δυνατὰ εἶναι ἄλλως ἔχειν καὶ μή ἀεὶ οὕτως ἔχειν, ὥστε καὶ συνεστῶτα διαλυθήσεται καὶ διαλελυμένα συνέστη ἔμπροσθεν, καὶ τοῦτʼ ἀπειράκις ἢ οὕτως εἶχεν ἢ δυνατὸν ἦν.
But if it has come to be, it is obviously necessary that those things too were capable of being otherwise and not always being in that state, so that what was constructed will also be dissolved, and what was dissolved was constructed before, and this either was the case or was possible infinitely.
εἰ δὲ τοῦτʼ, οὐκ ἂν εἴη ἄφθαρτος, οὔτʼ εἰ ἄλλως εἶχέ ποτε οὔτʼ εἰ δυνατὸν ἄλλως ἔχειν.
And if this is so, it could not be incorruptible, neither if it was once in another state, nor if it is possible for it to be otherwise.
ἣν δέ τινες βοήθειαν ἐπιχειροῦσι φέρειν ἑαυτοῖς τῶν λεγόντων ἄφθαρτον μὲν εἶναι γενόμενον δέ, οὐκ ἔστιν ἀληθής· ὁμοίως γάρ φασι τοῖς τὰ διαγράμματα γράφουσι καὶ σφᾶς εἰρηκέναι περὶ τῆς γενέσεως, οὐχ ὡς γενομένου ποτέ, ἀλλὰ διδασκαλίας χάριν ὡς μᾶλλον γνωριζόντων, ὥσπερ τὸ διάγραμμα γιγνόμενον θεασαμένους.
But the aid which some of those who say that it is incorruptible but generated attempt to bring to themselves is not true; for they say that, similarly to those who draw geometrical diagrams, they too have spoken of its generation, not as though it ever came to be, but for the sake of instruction, as making it more recognizable, just as those who observe a diagram in the process of being drawn.
τοῦτο δʼ ἐστίν, ὥσπερ λέγομεν, οὐ τὸ αὐτό· · ἐν μὲν γὰρ τῇ ποιήσει τῶν διαγραμμάτων πάντων τεθέντων εἶναι ἅμα τὸ αὐτὸ συμβαίνει, ἐν δὲ ταῖς τούτων ἀποδείξεσιν οὐ ταὐτόν.
But this is not the same thing, as we say; for in the construction of diagrams, when all things are assumed to exist, the same result occurs simultaneously, but in their demonstrations this is not the same.
ἀλλʼ ἀδύνατον· τὰ γὰρ λαμβανόμενα πρότερον καὶ ὕστερον ὑπεναντία ἐστίν· ἐξ ἀτάκτων γὰρ τεταγμένα γενέσθαι φασίν, ἅμα δὲ τὸ αὐτὸ ἄτακτον εἶναι καὶ τεταγμένον ἀδύνατον, ἀλλʼ ἀνάγκη γένεσιν εἶναι τὴν χωρίζουσαν καὶ χρόνον· ἐν δὲ τοῖς διαγράμμασιν οὐδὲν τῷ χρόνῳ κεχώρισται.
Rather, it is impossible; for the things assumed before and after are contrary; for they say that ordered things came to be from unordered ones, and it is impossible for the same thing to be simultaneously unordered and ordered; rather, there must be a generation and time separating them; but in diagrams nothing is separated by time.
ὅτι μὲν οὖν ἀδύνατον αὐτὸν ἅμʼ ἀΐδιον εἶναι καὶ γενέσθαι, φανερόν.
That it is impossible, then, for it to be simultaneously eternal and generated, is manifest.
τὸ δʼ ἐναλλὰξ συνιστάναι καὶ διαλύειν οὐδὲν ἀλλοιότερον ποιεῖν ἐστὶν ἢ τὸ κατασκευάζειν αὐτὸν ἀΐδιον μὲν ἀλλὰ μεταβάλλοντα τὴν μορφήν, ὥσπερ εἴ τις ἐκ παιδὸς ἄνδρα γινόμενον καὶ ἐξ ἀνδρὸς παῖδα ὁτὲ μὲν φθείρεσθαι τὲ δʼ εἶναι οἴοιτο· δῆλον γὰρ ὅτι καὶ εἰς ἄλληλα τῶν στοιχείων συνιόντων οὐχ ἡ τυχοῦσα τάξις γίγνεται καὶ σύστασις, ἀλλʼ ἡ αὐτή, ἄλλως τε καὶ κατὰ τοὺς τοῦτον τὸν λόγον εἰρηκότας, οἱ τῆς διαθέσεως ἑκατέρας αἰτιῶνται τὸ ἐναντίον.
And to construct it as being alternately combined and dissolved is to make it no different than establishing it as indeed eternal but changing its form, just as if someone were to think that a person becoming a man from a boy and a boy from a man is at one time destroyed and at another time exists; for it is clear that when the elements combine with one another, it is not any chance order and composition that comes to be, but the same one, especially according to those who have spoken this argument, who attribute the contrary as the cause of each of the two states.
ὥστʼ εἰ τὸ ὅλον σῶμα συνεχὲς ὂν ὁτὲ μὲν οὕτως ὁτὲ δʼ ἐκείνως διατίθεται καὶ διακεκόσμηται, ἡ δὲ τοῦ ὅλου σύστασίς ἐστι κόσμος καὶ οὐρανός, οὐκ ἂν ὁ κόσμος γίγνοιτο καὶ φθείροιτο, ἀλλʼ αἱ διαθέσεις αὐτοῦ.
So that if the whole body, being continuous, is disposed and ordered now in this way and now in that way, and the construction of the whole is the world and the heaven, then it is not the world that would be generated and destroyed, but its dispositions.
τὸ δʼ ὅλως γενόμενον φθαρῆναι καὶ μὴ ἀνακάμπτειν ὄντος μὲν ἑνὸς ἀδύνατόν ἐστιν· πρὶν γὰρ γενέσθαὶ ἀεὶ ὑπῆρχεν ἡ πρὸ αὐτοῦ σύστασις, ἣν μὴ γενομένην οὗχ οἷόν τʼ εἶναί φαμεν μεταβάλλειν· ἀπείρων δʼ ὄντων ἐνδέχεται μᾶλλον.
And for that which is once generated to be destroyed and not to return, if indeed it is one, is impossible; for before it was generated, the construction prior to it always existed, which, if it does not come to be, we say is impossible to change; but if they are infinite, it is more possible.
ἀλλὰ μὴν καὶ τοῦτο πότερον ἀδύνατον ἢ δυνατόν, ἔσται δῆλον ἐκ τῶν ὕστερον· εἰσὶ γάρ τινες οἷς ἐνδέχεσθαι δοκεῖ καὶ ἀγένητόν τι ὂν φθαρῆναι κμὶ γενόμενον ἄφθαρτον διατελεῖν, ὥσπερ ἐν τῷ Τιμαίῳ.
Nevertheless, whether this too is impossible or possible will be clear from what comes after; for there are some to whom it seems to be possible both for something that is ungenerated to be destroyed, and for what has been generated to continue incorruptible, as in the Timaeus.
ἐκεῖ γάρ φησι τὸν οὐρανὸν γενέσθαι μέν, οὐ μὴν ἀλλʼ ἔσεσθαί γε τὸν ἀεὶ χρόνον.
For there it says that the heaven was indeed generated, but nevertheless that it will exist for all time.
πρὸς οὓς φυσικῶς μὲν περὶ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ μόνον εἴρηται, καθόλου δὲ περὶ ἅπαντος σκεψαμένοις ἔσται καὶ περὶ τούτου δῆλον.
Against whom, while from the physical point of view it has been spoken concerning the heaven only, if we consider universally concerning everything, it will also be clear concerning this.