§7.817ΑΘ. ὅσα μὲν οὖν περὶ γέλωτά ἐστιν παίγνια, ἃ δὴ κωμῳδίαν πάντες λέγομεν, οὕτως τῷ νόμῳ καὶ λόγῳ κείσθω·
ATH.: Let all the playful things concerning laughter, which indeed we all call comedy, be thus established by law and argument.
τῶν δὲ σπουδαίων, ὥς φασι, τῶν περὶ τραγῳδίαν ἡμῖν ποιητῶν, ἐάν ποτέ τινες αὐτῶν ἡμᾶς ἐλθόντες ἐπανερωτήσωσιν οὑτωσί πως· ὦ ξένοι, πότερον φοιτῶμεν ὑμῖν εἰς τὴν πόλιν τε καὶ χώραν ἢ μή, καὶ τὴν ποίησιν φέρωμέν τε καὶ ἄγωμεν, ἢ πῶς ὑμῖν δέδοκται περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα δρᾶν; — τί οὖν ἂν πρὸς ταῦτα ὀρθῶς ἀποκριναίμεθα τοῖς θείοις ἀνδράσιν;
But concerning the serious poets, as they say, those among us who deal with tragedy, if ever any of them should come to us and ask some such question as this: 'O strangers, should we frequent your city and country or not, and should we bring and present our poetry, or how has it been decided by you to act concerning such matters?' What, then, would we rightly answer to these divine men?
ἐμοὶ μὲν γὰρ δοκεῖ τάδε· ὦ ἄριστοι,
φάναι,
τῶν ξένων, ἡμεῖς ἐσμὲν τραγῳδίας αὐτοὶ ποιηταὶ κατὰ δύναμιν ὅτι καλλίστης ἅμα καὶ ἀρίστης·
For to me indeed, the following seems best: to say, 'O best of strangers, we ourselves are poets of a tragedy that is, according to our ability, the most beautiful and at the same time the best.
πᾶσα οὖν ἡμῖν ἡ πολιτεία συνέστηκε μίμησις τοῦ καλλίστου καὶ ἀρίστου βίου, ὃ δή φαμεν ἡμεῖς γε ὄντως εἶναι τραγῳδίαν τὴν ἀληθεστάτην.
For our entire constitution has been constructed as an imitation of the most beautiful and best life, which we indeed say is genuinely the truest tragedy.
ποιηταὶ μὲν οὖν ὑμεῖς, ποιηταὶ δὲ καὶ ἡμεῖς ἐσμὲν τῶν αὐτῶν, ὑμῖν ἀντίτεχνοί τε καὶ ἀνταγωνισταὶ τοῦ καλλίστου δράματος, ὃ δὴ νόμος ἀληθὴς μόνος ἀποτελεῖν πέφυκεν, ὡς ἡ παρʼ ἡμῶν ἐστιν ἐλπίς·
You, then, are poets, and we also are poets of the same things, rivals and competitors of yours in the most beautiful drama, which true law alone is by nature capable of performing, as is our hope.
μὴ δὴ δόξητε ἡμᾶς ῥᾳδίως γε οὕτως ὑμᾶς ποτε παρʼ ἡμῖν ἐάσειν σκηνάς τε πήξαντας κατʼ ἀγορὰν καὶ καλλιφώνους ὑποκριτὰς εἰσαγαγομένους, μεῖζον φθεγγομένους ἡμῶν, ἐπιτρέψειν ὑμῖν δημηγορεῖν πρὸς παῖδάς τε καὶ γυναῖκας καὶ τὸν πάντα ὄχλον, τῶν αὐτῶν λέγοντας ἐπιτηδευμάτων πέρι μὴ τὰ αὐτὰ ἅπερ ἡμεῖς, ἀλλʼ ὡς τὸ πολὺ καὶ ἐναντία τὰ πλεῖστα.
Do not then expect that we shall ever so easily permit you to pitch your tents in our marketplace and introduce sweet-voiced actors, speaking louder than we do, and allow you to harangue children and women and the whole crowd, saying about the same practices not the same things as we do, but for the most part even the very opposite.
σχεδὸν γάρ τοι κἂν μαινοίμεθα τελέως ἡμεῖς τε καὶ ἅπασα ἡ πόλις, ἡτισοῦν ὑμῖν ἐπιτρέποι δρᾶν τὰ νῦν λεγόμενα, πρὶν κρῖναι τὰς ἀρχὰς εἴτε ῥητὰ καὶ ἐπιτήδεια πεποιήκατε λέγειν εἰς τὸ μέσον εἴτε μή.
For indeed we, and the whole city as well, would be almost completely mad if any city should permit you to do what is now being said before the magistrates have judged whether you have composed what is permitted and suitable to say in public or not.
νῦν οὖν, ὦ παῖδες μαλακῶν Μουσῶν ἔκγονοι, ἐπιδείξαντες τοῖς ἄρχουσι πρῶτον τὰς ὑμετέρας παρὰ τὰς ἡμετέρας ᾠδάς, ἂν μὲν τὰ αὐτά γε ἢ καὶ βελτίω τὰ παρʼ ὑμῶν φαίνηται λεγόμενα, δώσομεν ὑμῖν χορόν, εἰ δὲ μή, ὦ φίλοι, οὐκ ἄν ποτε δυναίμεθα. ταῦτʼ οὖν ἔστω περὶ πᾶσαν χορείαν καὶ μάθησιν τούτων πέρι συντεταγμένα νόμοις ἔθη, χωρὶς μὲν τὰ τῶν δούλων, χωρὶς δὲ τὰ τῶν δεσποτῶν, εἰ συνδοκεῖ.
Now therefore, O children, offspring of the soft Muses, having first shown your songs to the rulers in comparison with ours, if indeed the things said by you appear to be the same or even better, we will grant you a chorus, but if not, O friends, we would never be able to do so.' Let these then be the customs established by laws concerning all choral dancing and the learning about these things, the matters of slaves being separate, and the matters of masters being separate, if you agree.
ΚΛ. πῶς δʼ οὐ συνδοκεῖ νῦν γε οὕτως;
CL.: And how could we not agree, at least as things stand now?
§7.818ΑΘ. ἔτι δὴ τοίνυν τοῖς ἐλευθέροις ἔστιν τρία μαθήματα, λογισμοὶ μὲν καὶ τὰ περὶ ἀριθμοὺς ἓν μάθημα, μετρητικὴ δὲ μήκους καὶ ἐπιπέδου καὶ βάθους ὡς ἓν αὖ δεύτερον, τρίτον δὲ τῆς τῶν ἄστρων περιόδου πρὸς ἄλληλα ὡς πέφυκεν πορεύεσθαι.
ATH.: Further indeed, then, for the free citizens there are three branches of study: calculation and the matters concerning numbers as one study; the measurement of length, surface, and depth as a second in turn; and third, the period of the stars, how they are by nature suited to travel in relation to one another.
ταῦτα δὲ σύμπαντα οὐχ ὡς ἀκριβείας ἐχόμενα δεῖ διαπονεῖν τοὺς πολλοὺς ἀλλά τινας ὀλίγους— οὓς δέ, προϊόντες ἐπὶ τῷ τέλει φράσομεν· οὕτω γὰρ πρέπον ἂν εἴη—τῷ πλήθει δέ, ὅσα αὐτῶν ἀναγκαῖα καί πως ὀρθότατα λέγεται μὴ ἐπίστασθαι μὲν τοῖς πολλοῖς αἰσχρόν, διʼ ἀκριβείας δὲ ζητεῖν πάντα οὔτε ῥᾴδιον οὔτε τὸ παράπαν δυνατόν.
All these things, however, must not be labored over by the multitude to the point of achieving precision, but only by some few—and who these are, we shall say as we proceed toward the end, for so it would be fitting—but for the multitude, as much of them as is necessary and of which it is most correctly said that for the many not to understand is shameful, though to seek precision in all of them is neither easy nor at all possible.
τὸ δὲ ἀναγκαῖον αὐτῶν οὐχ οἷόν τε ἀποβάλλειν, ἀλλʼ ἔοικεν ὁ τὸν θεὸν πρῶτον παροιμιασάμενος εἰς ταῦτα ἀποβλέψας εἰπεῖν ὡς οὐδὲ θεὸς ἀνάγκῃ μή ποτε φανῇ μαχόμενος, ὅσαι θεῖαί γε, οἶμαι, τῶν γε ἀναγκῶν εἰσίν· ἐπεὶ τῶν γε ἀνθρωπίνων, εἰς ἃς οἱ πολλοὶ βλέποντες λέγουσι τὸ τοιοῦτον, οὗτος πάντων τῶν λόγων εὐηθέστατός ἐστιν μακρῷ.
But it is not possible to reject the necessary part of them, but he who first made the proverb about God seems to have said, looking at these things, that 'not even a god will ever be seen fighting against necessity'—as many of them, I suppose, as are divine necessities; since in regard to the human ones, looking at which the many say such a thing, this is by far the most foolish of all sayings.
ΚΛ. τίνες οὖν, ὦ ξένε, αἱ μὴ τοιαῦται ἀνάγκαι τῶν μαθημάτων, θεῖαι δέ;
CL.: What then, O stranger, are those necessities of the studies which are not of this human kind, but divine?
ΑΘ. δοκῶ μέν, ἃς μή τις πράξας μηδὲ αὖ μαθὼν τὸ παράπαν οὐκ ἄν ποτε γένοιτο ἀνθρώποις θεὸς οὐδὲ δαίμων οὐδὲ ἥρως οἷος δυνατὸς ἀνθρώπων ἐπιμέλειαν σὺν σπουδῇ ποιεῖσθαι·
ATH.: I think they are those which, if someone has neither practiced nor learned at all, he could never become for men a god, nor a daemon, nor a hero capable of taking care of humans with serious care.
πολλοῦ δʼ ἂν δεήσειεν ἄνθρωπός γε θεῖος γενέσθαι μήτε ἓν μήτε δύο μήτε τρία μήθʼ ὅλως ἄρτια καὶ περιττὰ δυνάμενος γιγνώσκειν, μηδὲ ἀριθμεῖν τὸ παράπαν εἰδώς, μηδὲ νύκτα καὶ ἡμέραν διαριθμεῖσθαι δυνατὸς ὤν, σελήνης δὲ καὶ ἡλίου καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ἄστρων περιφορᾶς ἀπείρως ἔχων.
And far indeed would a human be from becoming divine, if he were able to understand neither one, nor two, nor three, nor even-and-odd numbers at all, nor knew how to count at all, nor were able to calculate night and day, and had no experience of the revolution of the moon and the sun and the other stars.
ταῦτʼ οὖν δὴ πάντα ὡς μὲν οὐκ ἀναγκαῖά ἐστι μαθήματα τῷ μέλλοντι σχεδὸν ὁτιοῦν τῶν καλλίστων μαθημάτων εἴσεσθαι, πολλὴ καὶ μωρία τοῦ διανοήματος·
To think, then, that all these are not necessary studies for one who is to know almost any of the most beautiful studies, is a very foolish thought.
ποῖα δὲ ἕκαστα τούτων καὶ πόσα καὶ πότε μαθητέον, καὶ τί μετὰ τίνος καὶ τί χωρὶς τῶν ἄλλων, καὶ πᾶσαν τὴν τούτων κρᾶσιν, ταῦτά ἐστιν ἃ δεῖ λαβόντα ὀρθῶς πρῶτα, ἐπὶ τἆλλα ἰόντα τούτων ἡγουμένων τῶν μαθημάτων μανθάνειν.
But what kind each of these is, and how many, and when they must be learned, and what after what, and what apart from the others, and the whole mixture of them—these are the things which one must first grasp correctly, and then proceed to the other things with these studies leading the way.
οὕτω γὰρ ἀνάγκη φύσει κατείληφεν, ᾗ φαμεν οὐδένα θεῶν οὔτε μάχεσθαι τὰ νῦν οὔτε μαχεῖσθαί ποτε.
For in this way, a necessity by nature has taken hold, against which we say no one of the gods either fights now or will ever fight.
ΚΛ. ἔοικέν γε, ὦ ξένε, νῦν οὕτω πως ῥηθέντα ὀρθῶς εἰρῆσθαι καὶ κατὰ φύσιν ἃ λέγεις.
CL.: It seems indeed, O stranger, that what you say, being stated in some such way now, has been spoken correctly and in accordance with nature.
ΑΘ. ἔχει μὲν γὰρ οὕτως, ὦ Κλεινία, χαλεπὸν δὲ αὐτὰ προταξάμενον τούτῳ τῷ τρόπῳ νομοθετεῖν· ἀλλʼ εἰς ἄλλον, εἰ δοκεῖ, χρόνον ἀκριβέστερον ἂν νομοθετησαίμεθα.
ATH.: For indeed it is so, O Clinias; but it is difficult to legislate for them having prescribed them in this manner; but at another time, if it seems best, we might legislate more precisely.
ΚΛ. δοκεῖς ἡμῖν, ὦ ξένε, φοβεῖσθαι τὸ τῆς ἡμετέρας περὶ τῶν τοιούτων ἀπειρίας ἔθος.
CL.: You seem to us, O stranger, to fear our habit of inexperience in such matters.
οὔκουν ὀρθῶς φοβῇ· πειρῶ δὴ λέγειν μηδὲν ἀποκρυπτόμενος ἕνεκα τούτων.
But you do not fear rightly; do try to speak without hiding anything on account of these things.