§8.557καὶ σφόδρα γε. δημοκρατία δὴ οἶμαι γίγνεται ὅταν οἱ πένητες νικήσαντες τοὺς μὲν ἀποκτείνωσι τῶν ἑτέρων, τοὺς δὲ ἐκβάλωσι, τοῖς δὲ λοιποῖς ἐξ ἴσου μεταδῶσι πολιτείας τε καὶ ἀρχῶν, καὶ ὡς τὸ πολὺ ἀπὸ κλήρων αἱ ἀρχαὶ ἐν αὐτῇ γίγνονται. ἔστι γάρ, ἔφη, αὕτη ἡ κατάστασις δημοκρατίας, ἐάντε καὶ διʼ ὅπλων γένηται ἐάντε καὶ διὰ φόβον ὑπεξελθόντων τῶν ἑτέρων.
"And very much so." "Democracy, I suppose, comes into being when the poor, having conquered, kill some of the opposing party, banish others, and share the citizenship and the offices equally with the rest, and for the most part the offices in it are assigned by lot." "For," he said, "this is the establishment of democracy, whether it comes about through arms or through the withdrawal of the other party out of fear." "In what way, then," I said, "do these people live?
τίνα δὴ οὖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, οὗτοι τρόπον οἰκοῦσι; καὶ ποία τις ἡ τοιαύτη αὖ πολιτεία;
And what kind of character, in turn, does such a constitution have?
δῆλον γὰρ ὅτι ὁ τοιοῦτος ἀνὴρ δημοκρατικός τις ἀναφανήσεται. δῆλον, ἔφη.
For it is clear that the corresponding man will turn out to be democratic." "It is clear," he said.
οὐκοῦν πρῶτον μὲν δὴ ἐλεύθεροι, καὶ ἐλευθερίας ἡ πόλις μεστὴ καὶ παρρησίας γίγνεται, καὶ ἐξουσία ἐν αὐτῇ ποιεῖν ὅτι τις βούλεται; λέγεταί γε δή, ἔφη.
"First, then, are they not free, and does not the city become full of freedom and frankness of speech, and is there not license in it to do whatever anyone wants?" "At any rate, so it is said," he said.
ὅπου δέ γε ἐξουσία, δῆλον ὅτι ἰδίαν ἕκαστος ἂν κατασκευὴν τοῦ αὑτοῦ βίου κατασκευάζοιτο ἐν αὐτῇ, ἥτις ἕκαστον ἀρέσκοι. δῆλον. παντοδαποὶ δὴ ἂν οἶμαι ἐν ταύτῃ τῇ πολιτείᾳ μάλιστʼ ἐγγίγνοιντο ἄνθρωποι. πῶς γὰρ οὔ; κινδυνεύει, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, καλλίστη αὕτη τῶν πολιτειῶν εἶναι· ὥσπερ ἱμάτιον ποικίλον πᾶσιν ἄνθεσι πεποικιλμένον, οὕτω καὶ αὕτη πᾶσιν ἤθεσιν πεποικιλμένη καλλίστη ἂν φαίνοιτο. καὶ ἴσως μέν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, καὶ ταύτην, ὥσπερ οἱ παῖδές τε καὶ αἱ γυναῖκες τὰ ποικίλα θεώμενοι, καλλίστην ἂν πολλοὶ κρίνειαν. καὶ μάλʼ, ἔφη.
"And where there is license, it is clear that each person would arrange his own life in it in his own private way, whichever way pleases each." "It is clear." "In this constitution, then, I suppose, all kinds of men would especially arise." "How could they not?" "It is likely," I said, "that this is the finest of constitutions; like a multi-colored cloak embroidered with every kind of flower, so this, too, embroidered with every kind of character, would appear finest." "And perhaps," I said, "many, like children and women looking at multi-colored things, would judge this constitution to be the finest." "Very much so," he said.
καὶ ἔστιν γε, ὦ μακάριε, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἐπιτήδειον ζητεῖν ἐν αὐτῇ πολιτείαν. τί δή; ὅτι πάντα γένη πολιτειῶν ἔχει διὰ τὴν ἐξουσίαν, καὶ κινδυνεύει τῷ βουλομένῳ πόλιν κατασκευάζειν, ὃ νυνδὴ ἡμεῖς ἐποιοῦμεν, ἀναγκαῖον εἶναι εἰς δημοκρατουμένην ἐλθόντι πόλιν, ὃς ἂν αὐτὸν ἀρέσκῃ τρόπος, τοῦτον ἐκλέξασθαι, ὥσπερ εἰς παντοπώλιον ἀφικομένῳ πολιτειῶν, καὶ ἐκλεξαμένῳ οὕτω κατοικίζειν. ἴσως γοῦν, ἔφη, οὐκ ἂν ἀποροῖ παραδειγμάτων. §8.558τὸ δὲ μηδεμίαν ἀνάγκην, εἶπον, εἶναι ἄρχειν ἐν ταύτῃ τῇ πόλει, μηδʼ ἂν ᾖς ἱκανὸς ἄρχειν, μηδὲ αὖ ἄρχεσθαι, ἐὰν μὴ βούλῃ, μηδὲ πολεμεῖν πολεμούντων, μηδὲ εἰρήνην ἄγειν τῶν ἄλλων ἀγόντων, ἐὰν μὴ ἐπιθυμῇς εἰρήνης, μηδὲ αὖ, ἐάν τις ἄρχειν νόμος σε διακωλύῃ ἢ δικάζειν, μηδὲν ἧττον καὶ ἄρχειν καὶ δικάζειν, ἐὰν αὐτῷ σοι ἐπίῃ, ἆρʼ οὐ θεσπεσία καὶ ἡδεῖα ἡ τοιαύτη διαγωγὴ ἐν τῷ παραυτίκα; ἴσως, ἔφη, ἔν γε τούτῳ.
"And indeed, my blessed friend," I said, "it is convenient to look for a constitution in it." "Why so?" "Because it contains all kinds of constitutions on account of this liberty, and it is likely that for anyone wishing to organize a city, as we were just now doing, it is necessary to go to a democratically ruled city and select whatever type pleases him, as if arriving at a general bazaar of constitutions, and having selected it, then establish his colony." "At any rate, perhaps," he said, "one would not be at a loss for models." "And this," I said, "that there is no necessity to rule in this city, even if you are capable of ruling, nor in turn to be ruled, if you do not wish it, nor to wage war when others are waging war, nor to keep peace when others are keeping it, unless you desire peace; and again, even if some law forbids you to rule or to judge, to rule and to judge none the less, if it occurs to you yourself—is not such a way of passing time divinely sweet and pleasant for the moment?" "Perhaps," he said, "at least in this respect." "What about this?
τί δέ; ἡ πρᾳότης ἐνίων τῶν δικασθέντων οὐ κομψή;
Is not the mildness of some of those who have been condemned elegant?
ἢ οὔπω εἶδες, ἐν τοιαύτῃ πολιτείᾳ καταψηφισθέντων θανάτου ἢ φυγῆς, οὐδὲν ἧττον αὐτῶν μενόντων τε καὶ ἀναστρεφομένων ἐν μέσῳ, ὡς οὔτε φροντίζοντος οὔτε ὁρῶντος οὐδενὸς περινοστεῖ ὥσπερ ἥρως; καὶ πολλούς γʼ, ἔφη.
Or have you not yet seen, in such a constitution, men condemned to death or exile, remaining none the less and moving about in public; and as if no one cared or saw, he stalks around like a hero?" "And many indeed," he said.
ἡ δὲ συγγνώμη καὶ οὐδʼ ὁπωστιοῦν σμικρολογία αὐτῆς, ἀλλὰ καταφρόνησις ὧν ἡμεῖς ἐλέγομεν σεμνύνοντες, ὅτε τὴν πόλιν ᾠκίζομεν, ὡς εἰ μή τις ὑπερβεβλημένην φύσιν ἔχοι, οὔποτʼ ἂν γένοιτο ἀνὴρ ἀγαθός, εἰ μὴ παῖς ὢν εὐθὺς παίζοι ἐν καλοῖς καὶ ἐπιτηδεύοι τὰ τοιαῦτα πάντα, ὡς μεγαλοπρεπῶς καταπατήσασʼ ἅπαντʼ αὐτὰ οὐδὲν φροντίζει ἐξ ὁποίων ἄν τις ἐπιτηδευμάτων ἐπὶ τὰ πολιτικὰ ἰὼν πράττῃ, ἀλλὰ τιμᾷ, ἐὰν φῇ μόνον εὔνους εἶναι τῷ πλήθει; πάνυ γʼ, ἔφη, γενναία.
"And its indulgence, and its utter lack of small-mindedness, but rather its contempt for those things which we were saying with solemnity when we were founding our city—namely, that unless someone possessed an extraordinary nature, he could never become a good man unless from early childhood he played among beautiful things and practiced all such pursuits—how magnificently, having trampled all these underfoot, it does not care at all from what kind of pursuits a man enters upon public affairs, but honors him if only he says that he is well-disposed to the multitude?" "A very noble one indeed," he said.
ταῦτά τε δή, ἔφην, ἔχοι ἂν καὶ τούτων ἄλλα ἀδελφὰ δημοκρατία, καὶ εἴη, ὡς ἔοικεν, ἡδεῖα πολιτεία καὶ ἄναρχος καὶ ποικίλη, ἰσότητά τινα ὁμοίως ἴσοις τε καὶ ἀνίσοις διανέμουσα. καὶ μάλʼ, ἔφη, γνώριμα λέγεις. ἄθρει δή, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, τίς ὁ τοιοῦτος ἰδίᾳ.
"These then," I said, "and other sister traits to these, democracy would possess, and it would be, as it seems, a pleasant, lawless, and multi-colored constitution, distributing a kind of equality similarly to both equals and unequals." "And very familiar indeed," he said, "are the things you say." "Look then," I said, "who this sort of man is in private.
ἢ πρῶτον σκεπτέον, ὥσπερ τὴν πολιτείαν ἐσκεψάμεθα, τίνα τρόπον γίγνεται; ναί, ἔφη.
Or must we first consider, just as we considered the constitution, in what way he comes to be?" "Yes," he said.
ἆρʼ οὖν οὐχ ὧδε;
"Is it not, then, in this way?
τοῦ φειδωλοῦ ἐκείνου καὶ ὀλιγαρχικοῦ γένοιτʼ ἂν οἶμαι ὑὸς ὑπὸ τῷ πατρὶ τεθραμμένος ἐν τοῖς ἐκείνου ἤθεσι; τί γὰρ οὔ; βίᾳ δὴ καὶ οὗτος ἄρχων τῶν ἐν αὑτῷ ἡδονῶν, ὅσαι ἀναλωτικαὶ μέν, χρηματιστικαὶ δὲ μή· αἳ δὴ οὐκ ἀναγκαῖαι κέκληνται— δῆλον, ἔφη.
From that frugal and oligarchical man, I suppose, a son would be born, reared under his father in the father's habits?" "Why, how not?" "And this son, then, by force rules over those pleasures in himself which are spendthrift but not money-making; those indeed which have been called unnecessary—" "It is clear," he said.
βούλει οὖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἵνα μὴ σκοτεινῶς διαλεγώμεθα, πρῶτον ὁρισώμεθα τάς τε ἀναγκαίους ἐπιθυμίας καὶ τὰς μή; βούλομαι, ἦ δʼ ὅς.
"Do you wish, then," I said, "so that we may not converse in the dark, that we first define the necessary desires and those that are not?" "I do wish it," he said.
οὐκοῦν ἅς τε οὐκ ἂν οἷοί τʼ εἶμεν ἀποτρέψαι, δικαίως ἂν ἀναγκαῖαι καλοῖντο, καὶ ὅσαι ἀποτελούμεναι ὠφελοῦσιν ἡμᾶς; τούτων γὰρ ἀμφοτέρων ἐφίεσθαι ἡμῶν τῇ φύσει ἀνάγκη.
"Would not, then, those which we are unable to turn away, and those which when fulfilled benefit us, justly be called necessary?" "For to desire both of these is of necessity in our nature.
ἢ οὔ; καὶ μάλα.
Or not?" "Very much so."