§2.372ἐγὼ μέν, ἔφη, οὐκ ἐννοῶ, ὦ Σώκρατες, εἰ μή που ἐν αὐτῶν τούτων χρείᾳ τινὶ τῇ πρὸς ἀλλήλους. ἀλλʼ ἴσως, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, καλῶς λέγεις· καὶ σκεπτέον γε καὶ οὐκ ἀποκνητέον.
"For my part, Socrates," he said, "I cannot conceive where it could be, unless it be in some need these very people have of one another." "But perhaps," I said, "you are right; we must look into it and not shrink from the task.
πρῶτον οὖν σκεψώμεθα τίνα τρόπον διαιτήσονται οἱ οὕτω παρεσκευασμένοι.
First, then, let us consider what manner of life those thus provided for will lead.
ἄλλο τι ἢ σῖτόν τε ποιοῦντες καὶ οἶνον καὶ ἱμάτια καὶ ὑποδήματα;
Will they not do so by producing bread, wine, clothes, and shoes?
καὶ οἰκοδομησάμενοι οἰκίας, θέρους μὲν τὰ πολλὰ γυμνοί τε καὶ ἀνυπόδητοι ἐργάσονται, τοῦ δὲ χειμῶνος ἠμφιεσμένοι τε καὶ ὑποδεδεμένοι ἱκανῶς·
And having built themselves houses, in summer they will work for the most part naked and barefoot, but in winter adequately clothed and shod.
θρέψονται δὲ ἐκ μὲν τῶν κριθῶν ἄλφιτα σκευαζόμενοι, ἐκ δὲ τῶν πυρῶν ἄλευρα, τὰ μὲν πέψαντες, τὰ δὲ μάξαντες, μάζας γενναίας καὶ ἄρτους ἐπὶ κάλαμόν τινα παραβαλλόμενοι ἢ φύλλα καθαρά, κατακλινέντες ἐπὶ στιβάδων ἐστρωμένων μίλακί τε καὶ μυρρίναις, εὐωχήσονται αὐτοί τε καὶ τὰ παιδία, ἐπιπίνοντες τοῦ οἴνου, ἐστεφανωμένοι καὶ ὑμνοῦντες τοὺς θεούς, ἡδέως συνόντες ἀλλήλοις, οὐχ ὑπὲρ τὴν οὐσίαν ποιούμενοι τοὺς παῖδας, εὐλαβούμενοι πενίαν ἢ πόλεμον. καὶ ὁ Γλαύκων ὑπολαβών, Ἄνευ ὄψου, ἔφη, ὡς ἔοικας, ποιεῖς τοὺς ἄνδρας ἑστιωμένους. ἀληθῆ, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, λέγεις.
They will feed themselves, preparing barley meal from barley and wheat flour from wheat, baking some and kneading others, putting noble round-cakes and loaves upon some reeds or clean leaves, and reclining on rustic beds strewn with yew and myrtles, they and their children will feast, drinking wine, wearing garlands, and singing hymns to the gods, living pleasantly together, and not begetting children beyond their means, guarding against poverty or war." And Glaucon, interrupting, said, "You seem to make these men feast without any relish." "You speak the truth," I said.
ἐπελαθόμην ὅτι καὶ ὄψον ἕξουσιν, ἅλας τε δῆλον ὅτι καὶ ἐλάας καὶ τυρόν, καὶ βολβοὺς καὶ λάχανά γε, οἷα δὴ ἐν ἀγροῖς ἑψήματα, ἑψήσονται.
"I forgot that they will also have relish—clearly they will have salt, olives, and cheese, and they will boil onions and vegetables, such as they boil in the fields.
καὶ τραγήματά που παραθήσομεν αὐτοῖς τῶν τε σύκων καὶ ἐρεβίνθων καὶ κυάμων, καὶ μύρτα καὶ φηγοὺς σποδιοῦσιν πρὸς τὸ πῦρ, μετρίως ὑποπίνοντες·
And we shall also set before them desserts of figs, chickpeas, and beans, and they will roast myrtle berries and acorns by the fire, drinking moderately.
καὶ οὕτω διάγοντες τὸν βίον ἐν εἰρήνῃ μετὰ ὑγιείας, ὡς εἰκός, γηραιοὶ τελευτῶντες ἄλλον τοιοῦτον βίον τοῖς ἐκγόνοις παραδώσουσιν. καὶ ὅς, εἰ δὲ ὑῶν πόλιν, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἔφη, κατεσκεύαζες, τί ἂν αὐτὰς ἄλλο ἢ ταῦτα ἐχόρταζες; ἀλλὰ πῶς χρή, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὦ Γλαύκων;
And so, spending their lives in peace and health, as is likely, and dying at an advanced age, they will bequeath another such life to their offspring." And he said, "If you were founding a city of pigs, Socrates, what else would you feed them but these very things?" "But how should it be, Glaucon?" I said.
ἅπερ νομίζεται, ἔφη·
"In the customary way," he said.
ἐπί τε κλινῶν κατακεῖσθαι οἶμαι τοὺς μέλλοντας μὴ ταλαιπωρεῖσθαι, καὶ ἀπὸ τραπεζῶν δειπνεῖν, καὶ ὄψα ἅπερ καὶ οἱ νῦν ἔχουσι καὶ τραγήματα. εἶεν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ· μανθάνω.
"Those who are not to be miserable should, I think, recline on couches, dine from tables, and have the relishes and desserts that people have nowadays." "Very well," I said; "I understand.
οὐ πόλιν, ὡς ἔοικε, σκοποῦμεν μόνον ὅπως γίγνεται, ἀλλὰ καὶ τρυφῶσαν πόλιν.
It seems we are considering not only how a city comes to be, but also a luxurious city.
ἴσως οὖν οὐδὲ κακῶς ἔχει· σκοποῦντες γὰρ καὶ τοιαύτην τάχʼ ἂν κατίδοιμεν τήν τε δικαιοσύνην καὶ ἀδικίαν ὅπῃ ποτὲ ταῖς πόλεσιν ἐμφύονται.
Perhaps, then, this is not a bad thing; for by looking at such a city we might quickly see where justice and injustice take root in cities.
ἡ μὲν οὖν ἀληθινὴ πόλις δοκεῖ μοι εἶναι ἣν διεληλύθαμεν, ὥσπερ ὑγιής τις· εἰ δʼ αὖ βούλεσθε, καὶ φλεγμαίνουσαν πόλιν θεωρήσωμεν· οὐδὲν ἀποκωλύει. §2.373ταῦτα γὰρ δή τισιν, ὡς δοκεῖ, οὐκ ἐξαρκέσει, οὐδὲ αὕτη ἡ δίαιτα, ἀλλὰ κλῖναί τε προσέσονται καὶ τράπεζαι καὶ τἆλλα σκεύη, καὶ ὄψα δὴ καὶ μύρα καὶ θυμιάματα καὶ ἑταῖραι καὶ πέμματα, καὶ ἕκαστα τούτων παντοδαπά.
The true city seems to me to be the one we have described, being, as it were, a healthy one; but if you wish, let us also look at a feverish city; nothing prevents us." "For these things, as it seems, will not satisfy some, nor will this way of life; but couches will be added, and tables, and other furniture, and of course relishes, perfumes, incense, courtesans, and cakes, and each of these in all varieties.
καὶ δὴ καὶ ἃ τὸ πρῶτον ἐλέγομεν οὐκέτι τἀναγκαῖα θετέον, οἰκίας τε καὶ ἱμάτια καὶ ὑποδήματα, ἀλλὰ τήν τε ζωγραφίαν κινητέον καὶ τὴν ποικιλίαν, καὶ χρυσὸν καὶ ἐλέφαντα καὶ πάντα τὰ τοιαῦτα κτητέον.
And indeed, what we mentioned at first, the necessities—houses, clothes, and shoes—must no longer be posited as the only ones, but we must set painting and embroidery in motion, and we must acquire gold, ivory, and all such things.
ἦ γάρ; ναί, ἔφη.
Is it not so?" "Yes," he said.
οὐκοῦν μείζονά τε αὖ τὴν πόλιν δεῖ ποιεῖν· ἐκείνη γὰρ ἡ ὑγιεινὴ οὐκέτι ἱκανή, ἀλλʼ ἤδη ὄγκου ἐμπληστέα καὶ πλήθους, ἃ οὐκέτι τοῦ ἀναγκαίου ἕνεκά ἐστιν ἐν ταῖς πόλεσιν, οἷον οἵ τε θηρευταὶ πάντες οἵ τε μιμηταί, πολλοὶ μὲν οἱ περὶ τὰ σχήματά τε καὶ χρώματα, πολλοὶ δὲ οἱ περὶ μουσικήν, ποιηταί τε καὶ τούτων ὑπηρέται, ῥαψῳδοί, ὑποκριταί, χορευταί, ἐργολάβοι, σκευῶν τε παντοδαπῶν δημιουργοί, τῶν τε ἄλλων καὶ τῶν περὶ τὸν γυναικεῖον κόσμον.
"Then we must make the city larger again; for that healthy one is no longer sufficient, but must now be filled with a multitude of people and a mass of things that are no longer in cities for the sake of necessity—such as all kinds of hunters and imitators, many concerned with shapes and colors, and many with music, poets and their assistants, rhapsodists, actors, dancers, contractors, and creators of all kinds of utensils, especially those concerned with women's adornment.
καὶ δὴ καὶ διακόνων πλειόνων δεησόμεθα· ἢ οὐ δοκεῖ δεήσειν παιδαγωγῶν, τιτθῶν, τροφῶν, κομμωτριῶν, κουρέων, καὶ αὖ ὀψοποιῶν τε καὶ μαγείρων;
And indeed, we shall need more servants; or do you not think we shall need tutors, wet-nurses, governesses, beauticians, barbers, and again, chefs and cooks?
ἔτι δὲ καὶ συβωτῶν προσδεησόμεθα· τοῦτο γὰρ ἡμῖν ἐν τῇ προτέρᾳ πόλει οὐκ ἐνῆν—ἔδει γὰρ οὐδέν—ἐν δὲ ταύτῃ καὶ τούτου προσδεήσει.
And further, we shall also need swineherds; for this was not in our former city—for there was no need—but in this one there will be need of this as well.
δεήσει δὲ καὶ τῶν ἄλλων βοσκημάτων παμπόλλων, εἴ τις αὐτὰ ἔδεται·
And we shall also need all other kinds of cattle in great numbers, if anyone is to eat them.
ἦ γάρ; πῶς γὰρ οὔ; οὐκοῦν καὶ ἰατρῶν ἐν χρείαις ἐσόμεθα πολὺ μᾶλλον οὕτω διαιτώμενοι ἢ ὡς τὸ πρότερον; πολύ γε. καὶ ἡ χώρα γέ που, ἡ τότε ἱκανὴ τρέφειν τοὺς τότε, σμικρὰ δὴ ἐξ ἱκανῆς ἔσται.
Is it not so?" "Of course." "Then shall we not also stand in much greater need of physicians, living in this way rather than the former?" "Much greater." "And the territory, surely, which was then sufficient to feed those then, will become small instead of sufficient.
ἢ πῶς λέγομεν; οὕτως, ἔφη.
Or how do we say?" "Thus," he said.
οὐκοῦν τῆς τῶν πλησίον χώρας ἡμῖν ἀποτμητέον, εἰ μέλλομεν ἱκανὴν ἕξειν νέμειν τε καὶ ἀροῦν, καὶ ἐκείνοις αὖ τῆς ἡμετέρας, ἐὰν καὶ ἐκεῖνοι ἀφῶσιν αὑτοὺς ἐπὶ χρημάτων κτῆσιν ἄπειρον, ὑπερβάντες τὸν τῶν ἀναγκαίων ὅρον; πολλὴ ἀνάγκη, ἔφη, ὦ Σώκρατες.
"Must we not, then, cut off a portion of our neighbors' territory if we are to have enough for pasture and ploughing, and they in turn of ours, if they too let themselves go to the unlimited acquisition of wealth, overstepping the boundary of necessity?" "It is highly necessary, Socrates," he said.
πολεμήσομεν δὴ τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο, ὦ Γλαύκων;
"Will we go to war after this, Glaucon?
ἢ πῶς ἔσται; οὕτως, ἔφη.
Or how will it be?" "Thus," he said.
καὶ μηδέν γέ πω λέγωμεν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, μήτʼ εἴ τι κακὸν μήτʼ εἰ ἀγαθὸν ὁ πόλεμος ἐργάζεται, ἀλλὰ τοσοῦτον μόνον, ὅτι πολέμου αὖ γένεσιν ηὑρήκαμεν, ἐξ ὧν μάλιστα ταῖς πόλεσιν καὶ ἰδίᾳ καὶ δημοσίᾳ κακὰ γίγνεται, ὅταν γίγνηται. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
"And let us say nothing yet," I said, "as to whether war works any evil or any good, but only this much, that we have found the origin of war, from which, when it occurs, the greatest evils come to cities, both privately and publicly." "By all means."