§291ΞΕ. τούτους τε τοίνυν τοὺς κληρωτοὺς βασιλέας ἅμα καὶ ἱερέας, καὶ ὑπηρέτας αὐτῶν καί τινα ἕτερον πάμπολυν ὄχλον σκεπτέον, ὃς ἄρτι κατάδηλος νῦν ἡμῖν γέγονεν ἀποχωρισθέντων τῶν ἔμπροσθεν.
STRANGER: Therefore, we must examine these kings chosen by lot, together with the priests, and their servants, and a certain other very large crowd, which has just now become manifest to us, since those mentioned before have been separated off.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τίνας δʼ αὐτοὺς καὶ λέγεις;
YOUNG SOCRATES: And whom indeed do you mean by them?
ΞΕ. καὶ μάλα τινὰς ἀτόπους.
STRANGER: And very strange ones indeed.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τί δή;
YOUNG SOCRATES: Why so?
ΞΕ. πάμφυλόν τι γένος αὐτῶν, ὥς γε ἄρτι σκοπουμένῳ φαίνεται.
STRANGER: Theirs is a class of all sorts of tribes, at least as it appears to one who is just now looking.
πολλοὶ μὲν γὰρ λέουσι τῶν ἀνδρῶν εἴξασι καὶ Κενταύροις καὶ τοιούτοισιν ἑτέροις, πάμπολλοι δὲ Σατύροις καὶ τοῖς ἀσθενέσι καὶ πολυτρόποις θηρίοις· ταχὺ δὲ μεταλλάττουσι τάς τε ἰδέας καὶ τὴν δύναμιν εἰς ἀλλήλους.
For many of the men resemble lions and Centaurs and other such creatures, and very many resemble Satyrs and weak and versatile beasts; and they quickly change their forms and capacity into one another.
καὶ μέντοι μοι νῦν, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἄρτι δοκῶ κατανενοηκέναι τοὺς ἄνδρας.
And indeed, Socrates, just now I think I have understood the men.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. λέγοις ἄν· ἔοικας γὰρ ἄτοπόν τι καθορᾶν.
YOUNG SOCRATES: You may speak; for you seem to be descrying something strange.
ΞΕ. ναί· τὸ γὰρ ἄτοπον ἐξ ἀγνοίας πᾶσι συμβαίνει.
STRANGER: Yes; for what is strange happens to everyone from ignorance.
καὶ γὰρ δὴ καὶ νῦν αὐτὸς τοῦτʼ ἔπαθον· ἐξαίφνης ἠμφεγνόησα κατιδὼν τὸν περὶ τὰ τῶν πόλεων πράγματα χορόν.
Indeed, just now I myself experienced this; suddenly I was at a loss, having looked upon the chorus concerned with the affairs of the cities.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ποῖον;
YOUNG SOCRATES: What sort of chorus?
ΞΕ. τὸν πάντων τῶν σοφιστῶν μέγιστον γόητα καὶ ταύτης τῆς τέχνης ἐμπειρότατον· ὃν ἀπὸ τῶν ὄντως ὄντων πολιτικῶν καὶ βασιλικῶν καίπερ παγχάλεπον ὄντα ἀφαιρεῖν ἀφαιρετέον, εἰ μέλλομεν ἰδεῖν ἐναργῶς τὸ ζητούμενον.
STRANGER: The greatest charlatan of all the sophists, and the most experienced in this art; whom we must separate from those who are truly statesmen and kings, even though it is extremely difficult to separate him, if we are to see clearly what is sought.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ μὴν τοῦτό γε οὐκ ἀνετέον.
YOUNG SOCRATES: But indeed, this at least must not be given up.
ΞΕ. οὔκουν δὴ κατά γε τὴν ἐμήν.
STRANGER: Certainly not, at least according to my view.
καί μοι φράζε τόδε.
Now tell me this.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τὸ ποῖον;
YOUNG SOCRATES: What sort of thing?
ΞΕ. ἆρʼ οὐ μοναρχία τῶν πολιτικῶν ἡμῖν ἀρχῶν ἐστι μία;
STRANGER: Is not monarchy one of our political offices?
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ναί.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
ΞΕ. καὶ μετὰ μοναρχίαν εἴποι τις ἂν οἶμαι τὴν ὑπὸ τῶν ὀλίγων δυναστείαν.
STRANGER: And after monarchy, I suppose one would speak of rule by the few.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πῶς δʼ οὔ;
YOUNG SOCRATES: How could one not?
ΞΕ. τρίτον δὲ σχῆμα πολιτείας οὐχ ἡ τοῦ πλήθους ἀρχή, δημοκρατία τοὔνομα κληθεῖσα;
STRANGER: And is not the third form of constitution the rule of the multitude, called by the name of democracy?
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. καὶ πάνυ γε.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Quite so.
ΞΕ. τρεῖς δʼ οὖσαι μῶν οὐ πέντε τρόπον τινὰ γίγνονται, δύʼ ἐξ ἑαυτῶν ἄλλα πρὸς αὑταῖς ὀνόματα τίκτουσαι;
STRANGER: But being three, do they not become five in a certain way, by generating from themselves two other names in addition to themselves?
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ποῖα δή;
YOUNG SOCRATES: Which ones indeed?
ΞΕ. πρὸς τὸ βίαιόν που καὶ ἑκούσιον ἀποσκοποῦντες νῦν καὶ πενίαν καὶ πλοῦτον καὶ νόμον καὶ ἀνομίαν ἐν αὐταῖς γιγνόμενα διπλῆν ἑκατέραν τοῖν δυοῖν διαιροῦντες μοναρχίαν μὲν προσαγορεύουσιν ὡς δύο παρεχομένην εἴδη δυοῖν ὀνόμασι, τυραννίδι, τὸ δὲ βασιλικῇ.
STRANGER: Looking, I suppose, to the compulsory and the voluntary, and to poverty and wealth, and to law and lawlessness occurring in them, and dividing each of the two into double, they address monarchy as presenting two forms under two names, the one tyranny, the other kingship.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τί μήν;
YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course.
ΞΕ. τὴν δὲ ὑπʼ ὀλίγων γε ἑκάστοτε κρατηθεῖσαν πόλιν ἀριστοκρατίᾳ καὶ ὀλιγαρχίᾳ.
STRANGER: And the city ruled on each occasion by the few, they divide into aristocracy and oligarchy.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. καὶ πάνυ γε.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Quite so.
§292ΞΕ. δημοκρατίας γε μήν, ἐάντʼ οὖν βιαίως ἐάντε ἑκουσίως τῶν τὰς οὐσίας ἐχόντων τὸ πλῆθος ἄρχῃ, καὶ ἐάντε τοὺς νόμους ἀκριβῶς φυλάττον ἐάντε μή, πάντως τοὔνομα οὐδεὶς αὐτῆς εἴωθε μεταλλάττειν.
STRANGER: However, as for democracy, whether the multitude rules over those who possess property by force or voluntarily, and whether guarding the laws strictly or not, in any case no one is accustomed to change its name.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ἀληθῆ.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
ΞΕ. τί οὖν;
STRANGER: What then?
οἰόμεθά τινα τούτων τῶν πολιτειῶν ὀρθὴν εἶναι τούτοις τοῖς ὅροις ὁρισθεῖσαν, ἑνὶ καὶ ὀλίγοις καὶ πολλοῖς, καὶ πλούτῳ καὶ πενίᾳ, καὶ τῷ βιαίῳ καὶ ἑκουσίῳ, καὶ μετὰ γραμμάτων καὶ ἄνευ νόμων συμβαίνουσαν γίγνεσθαι;
Do we think any of these constitutions is correct, defined by these limits—by one, few, and many, and by wealth and poverty, and by the compulsory and voluntary, and happening to occur with written rules or without laws?
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τί γὰρ δὴ καὶ κωλύει;
YOUNG SOCRATES: Indeed, what is there to prevent it?
ΞΕ. σκόπει δὴ σαφέστερον τῇδε ἑπόμενος.
STRANGER: Consider it then more clearly by following this way.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πῇ;
YOUNG SOCRATES: Which way?
ΞΕ. τῷ ῥηθέντι κατὰ πρώτας πότερον ἐμμενοῦμεν ἢ διαφωνήσομεν;
STRANGER: Shall we abide by what was said at the very beginning, or shall we disagree?
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τῷ δὴ ποίῳ λέγεις;
YOUNG SOCRATES: Which indeed do you mean?
ΞΕ. τὴν βασιλικὴν ἀρχὴν τῶν ἐπιστημῶν εἶναί τινα ἔφαμεν, οἶμαι.
STRANGER: We said, I think, that the kingly rule is one of the sciences.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ναί.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
ΞΕ. καὶ τούτων γε οὐχ ἁπασῶν, ἀλλὰ κριτικὴν δήπου τινὰ καὶ ἐπιστατικὴν ἐκ τῶν ἄλλων προειλόμεθα.
STRANGER: And not of all of them, but we chose out from the others a certain judging and directing science, I suppose.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ναί.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
ΞΕ. κἀκ τῆς ἐπιστατικῆς τὴν μὲν ἐπʼ ἀψύχοις ἔργοις, τὴν δʼ ἐπὶ ζῴοις·
STRANGER: And from the directing science, the one over inanimate works, and the other over living beings.
καὶ κατὰ τοῦτον δὴ τὸν τρόπον μερίζοντες δεῦρʼ ἀεὶ προεληλύθαμεν, ἐπιστήμης οὐκ ἐπιλανθανόμενοι, τὸ δʼ ἥτις οὐχ ἱκανῶς πω δυνάμενοι διακριβώσασθαι.
And dividing in indeed this way, we have always proceeded to this point, not forgetting science, though not yet able to define sufficiently what science it is.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. λέγεις ὀρθῶς.
YOUNG SOCRATES: You speak correctly.
ΞΕ. τοῦτʼ αὐτὸ τοίνυν ἆρʼ ἐννοοῦμεν, ὅτι τὸν ὅρον οὐκ ὀλίγους οὐδὲ πολλούς, οὐδὲ τὸ ἑκούσιον οὐδὲ τὸ ἀκούσιον, οὐδὲ πενίαν οὐδὲ πλοῦτον γίγνεσθαι περὶ αὐτῶν χρεών, ἀλλά τινα ἐπιστήμην, εἴπερ ἀκολουθήσομεν τοῖς πρόσθεν;
STRANGER: Do we then understand this very thing, that the limit concerning them must not be made the few or the many, nor the voluntary or involuntary, nor poverty or wealth, but a certain science, if indeed we are to follow what went before?
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ μὴν τοῦτό γε ἀδύνατον μὴ ποιεῖν.
YOUNG SOCRATES: But indeed, it is impossible not to do this.
ΞΕ. ἐξ ἀνάγκης δὴ νῦν τοῦτο οὕτω σκεπτέον, ἐν τίνι ποτὲ τούτων ἐπιστήμη συμβαίνει γίγνεσθαι περὶ ἀνθρώπων ἀρχῆς, σχεδὸν τῆς χαλεπωτάτης καὶ μεγίστης κτήσασθαι.
STRANGER: By necessity, then, we must now examine this in this way: in which of these does it happen that there is science concerning the rule over men, which is perhaps the hardest and greatest to acquire?
δεῖ γὰρ ἰδεῖν αὐτήν, ἵνα θεασώμεθα τίνας ἀφαιρετέον ἀπὸ τοῦ φρονίμου βασιλέως, οἳ προσποιοῦνται μὲν εἶναι πολιτικοὶ καὶ πείθουσι πολλούς, εἰσὶ δὲ οὐδαμῶς.
For we must see this science, in order to behold whom we must separate from the wise king—those who pretend to be statesmen and persuade many, but are in no way so.
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. δεῖ γὰρ δὴ ποιεῖν τοῦτο, ὡς ὁ λόγος ἡμῖν προείρηκεν.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For we must indeed do this, as our argument has already said.
ΞΕ. μῶν οὖν δοκεῖ πλῆθός γε ἐν πόλει ταύτην τὴν ἐπιστήμην δυνατὸν εἶναι κτήσασθαι;
STRANGER: Does it then seem possible for a multitude in a city to acquire this science?
ΝΕ. ΣΩ. καὶ πῶς;
YOUNG SOCRATES: How could they?
ΞΕ. ἀλλʼ ἆρα ἐν χιλιάνδρῳ πόλει δυνατὸν ἑκατόν τινας ἢ καὶ πεντήκοντα αὐτὴν ἱκανῶς κτήσασθαι;
STRANGER: But is it possible in a city of a thousand men for some hundred, or even fifty, to acquire it sufficiently?