§7.528σκόπει οὖν αὐτόθεν πρὸς ποτέρους διαλέγῃ· ἢ οὐδὲ πρὸς ἑτέρους, ἀλλὰ σαυτοῦ ἕνεκα τὸ μέγιστον ποιῇ τοὺς λόγους, φθονοῖς μὴν οὐδʼ ἂν ἄλλῳ, εἴ τίς τι δύναιτο ἀπʼ αὐτῶν ὄνασθαι. οὕτως, ἔφη, αἱροῦμαι, ἐμαυτοῦ ἕνεκα τὸ πλεῖστον λέγειν τε καὶ ἐρωτᾶν καὶ ἀποκρίνεσθαι.
"Consider, then, on the spot, for which of the two groups you are discussing; or are you arguing for neither, but carrying on the discussions chiefly for your own sake, though you would not begrudge anyone else if they could derive some benefit from them?" "In this way," he said, "I choose: to speak, ask, and answer mostly for my own sake." "Go back, then," I said, "to the previous point; for just now we did not correctly take the subject next in order to geometry." "How did we take it?" he said.
ἄναγε τοίνυν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, εἰς τοὐπίσω· νυνδὴ γὰρ οὐκ ὀρθῶς τὸ ἑξῆς ἐλάβομεν τῇ γεωμετρίᾳ. πῶς λαβόντες; ἔφη. μετὰ ἐπίπεδον, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἐν περιφορᾷ ὂν ἤδη στερεὸν λαβόντες, πρὶν αὐτὸ καθʼ αὑτὸ λαβεῖν·
"After the plane," I said, "we took a solid already in rotation, before taking it by itself; but it is correct to take the third dimension of increase next after the second.
ὀρθῶς δὲ ἔχει ἑξῆς μετὰ δευτέραν αὔξην τρίτην λαμβάνειν. ἔστι δέ που τοῦτο περὶ τὴν τῶν κύβων αὔξην καὶ τὸ βάθους μετέχον. ἔστι γάρ, ἔφη· ἀλλὰ ταῦτά γε, ὦ Σώκρατες, δοκεῖ οὔπω ηὑρῆσθαι. διττὰ γάρ, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, τὰ αἴτια· ὅτι τε οὐδεμία πόλις ἐντίμως αὐτὰ ἔχει, ἀσθενῶς ζητεῖται χαλεπὰ ὄντα, ἐπιστάτου τε δέονται οἱ ζητοῦντες, ἄνευ οὗ οὐκ ἂν εὕροιεν, ὃν πρῶτον μὲν γενέσθαι χαλεπόν, ἔπειτα καὶ γενομένου, ὡς νῦν ἔχει, οὐκ ἂν πείθοιντο οἱ περὶ ταῦτα ζητητικοὶ μεγαλοφρονούμενοι.
And this, I suppose, is about the increase of cubes and what participates in depth." "It is so," he said, "but these things, Socrates, seem not yet to have been discovered." "The reasons are twofold," I said: "first, because no city holds them in honor, they are investigated weakly because they are difficult; and those who investigate them need a director, without whom they would not discover them, who first of all is difficult to find, and second, even if he did exist, as things now stand, those who are inquisitive about these things would not obey him because they are proud.
εἰ δὲ πόλις ὅλη συνεπιστατοῖ ἐντίμως ἄγουσα αὐτά, οὗτοί τε ἂν πείθοιντο καὶ συνεχῶς τε ἂν καὶ ἐντόνως ζητούμενα ἐκφανῆ γένοιτο ὅπῃ ἔχει·
But if a whole city should supervise together, holding them in honor, these men would obey, and the things investigated continuously and vigorously would become manifest as to how they are.
ἐπεὶ καὶ νῦν ὑπὸ τῶν πολλῶν ἀτιμαζόμενα καὶ κολουόμενα, ὑπὸ δὲ τῶν ζητούντων λόγον οὐκ ἐχόντων καθʼ ὅτι χρήσιμα, ὅμως πρὸς ἅπαντα ταῦτα βίᾳ ὑπὸ χάριτος αὐξάνεται, καὶ οὐδὲν θαυμαστὸν αὐτὰ φανῆναι. καὶ μὲν δή, ἔφη, τό γε ἐπίχαρι καὶ διαφερόντως ἔχει.
Since even now, though dishonored and curtailed by the multitude, and by those who investigate them without being able to give an account of how they are useful, nevertheless in the face of all this they grow by force of their charm, and it is no wonder they appear." "Indeed," he said, "their charm is extraordinary.
ἀλλά μοι σαφέστερον εἰπὲ ἃ νυνδὴ ἔλεγες.
But tell me more clearly what you were saying just now.
τὴν μὲν γάρ που τοῦ ἐπιπέδου πραγματείαν γεωμετρίαν ἐτίθεις. ναί, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ.
For you set the study of the plane as geometry." "Yes," I said.
εἶτά γʼ, ἔφη, τὸ μὲν πρῶτον ἀστρονομίαν μετὰ ταύτην, ὕστερον δʼ ἀνεχώρησας. σπεύδων γάρ, ἔφην, ταχὺ πάντα διεξελθεῖν μᾶλλον βραδύνω·
"Then," he said, "at first you put astronomy after it, but later you backtracked." "Because in my haste to go go through everything quickly," I said, "I am actually delayed more.
ἑξῆς γὰρ οὖσαν τὴν βάθους αὔξης μέθοδον, ὅτι τῇ ζητήσει γελοίως ἔχει, ὑπερβὰς αὐτὴν μετὰ γεωμετρίαν ἀστρονομίαν ἔλεγον, φορὰν οὖσαν βάθους. ὀρθῶς, ἔφη, λέγεις.
For the study of the dimension of depth, which is next, because its investigation is in a ridiculous state, I passed over it and after geometry I spoke of astronomy, which is the motion of depth." "You speak rightly," he said.
τέταρτον τοίνυν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, τιθῶμεν μάθημα ἀστρονομίαν, ὡς ὑπαρχούσης τῆς νῦν παραλειπομένης, ἐὰν αὐτὴν πόλις μετίῃ. §7.529εἰκός, ἦ δʼ ὅς.
"Then let us set astronomy as the fourth study, assuming that the one now omitted exists, if the city pursues it." "That is reasonable," he said.
καὶ ὅ γε νυνδή μοι, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἐπέπληξας περὶ ἀστρονομίας ὡς φορτικῶς ἐπαινοῦντι, νῦν ᾗ σὺ μετέρχῃ ἐπαινῶ·
"And as for the rebuke you gave me just now about astronomy, as praising it vulgarly, now I praise it in the way that you pursue it.
παντὶ γάρ μοι δοκεῖ δῆλον ὅτι αὕτη γε ἀναγκάζει ψυχὴν εἰς τὸ ἄνω ὁρᾶν καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν ἐνθένδε ἐκεῖσε ἄγει. ἴσως, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, παντὶ δῆλον πλὴν ἐμοί· ἐμοὶ γὰρ οὐ δοκεῖ οὕτως. ἀλλὰ πῶς; ἔφη.
For it seems clear to everyone that this study compels the soul to look upward and leads it from things here to things there." "Perhaps," I said, "it is clear to everyone except me; for to me it does not seem so." "But how then?" he said.
ὡς μὲν νῦν αὐτὴν μεταχειρίζονται οἱ εἰς φιλοσοφίαν ἀνάγοντες, πάνυ ποιεῖν κάτω βλέπειν. πῶς, ἔφη, λέγεις;
"As those who now elevate it to philosophy handle it, it makes the soul look entirely downward." "How do you mean?" he said.
οὐκ ἀγεννῶς μοι δοκεῖς, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, τὴν περὶ τὰ ἄνω μάθησιν λαμβάνειν παρὰ σαυτῷ ἥ ἐστι·
"You seem to me to grasp quite generously in your own mind," I said, "what the study of things above is.
κινδυνεύεις γὰρ καὶ εἴ τις ἐν ὀροφῇ ποικίλματα θεώμενος ἀνακύπτων καταμανθάνοι τι, ἡγεῖσθαι ἂν αὐτὸν νοήσει ἀλλʼ οὐκ ὄμμασι θεωρεῖν.
For you risk thinking that even if someone looks up at decorations on a ceiling and learns something, he contemplates it with intellect and not with his eyes.
ἴσως οὖν καλῶς ἡγῇ, ἐγὼ δʼ εὐηθικῶς.
Perhaps you are right, and I am foolish.
ἐγὼ γὰρ αὖ οὐ δύναμαι ἄλλο τι νομίσαι ἄνω ποιοῦν ψυχὴν βλέπειν μάθημα ἢ ἐκεῖνο ὃ ἂν περὶ τὸ ὄν τε ᾖ καὶ τὸ ἀόρατον, ἐάν τέ τις ἄνω κεχηνὼς ἢ κάτω συμμεμυκὼς τῶν αἰσθητῶν τι ἐπιχειρῇ μανθάνειν, οὔτε μαθεῖν ἄν ποτέ φημι αὐτόν—ἐπιστήμην γὰρ οὐδὲν ἔχειν τῶν τοιούτων—οὔτε ἄνω ἀλλὰ κάτω αὐτοῦ βλέπειν τὴν ψυχήν, κἂν ἐξ ὑπτίας νέων ἐν γῇ ἢ ἐν θαλάττῃ μανθάνῃ.
For I, on my part, cannot consider any other study as making the soul look upward than that which is about reality and the unseen.
δίκην, ἔφη, ἔχω· ὀρθῶς γάρ μοι ἐπέπληξας. ἀλλὰ πῶς δὴ ἔλεγες δεῖν ἀστρονομίαν μανθάνειν παρὰ ἃ νῦν μανθάνουσιν, εἰ μέλλοιεν ὠφελίμως πρὸς ἃ λέγομεν μαθήσεσθαι;
If anyone tries to learn something of sensible things, whether gaping upward or squinting downward, I say he would never learn it—for such things admit of no scientific knowledge—nor would his soul look upward but downward, even if he learns while floating on his back on land or in the sea." "I stand corrected," he said, "for you have rebuked me rightly.
ὧδε, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ.
But how then did you say astronomy ought to be learned, contrary to how they learn it now, if they are to learn it usefully for our purposes?" "In this way," I said.
ταῦτα μὲν τὰ ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ ποικίλματα, ἐπείπερ ἐν ὁρατῷ πεποίκιλται, κάλλιστα μὲν ἡγεῖσθαι καὶ ἀκριβέστατα τῶν τοιούτων ἔχειν, τῶν δὲ ἀληθινῶν πολὺ ἐνδεῖν, ἃς τὸ ὂν τάχος καὶ ἡ οὖσα βραδυτὴς ἐν τῷ ἀληθινῷ ἀριθμῷ καὶ πᾶσι τοῖς ἀληθέσι σχήμασι φοράς τε πρὸς ἄλληλα φέρεται καὶ τὰ ἐνόντα φέρει, ἃ δὴ λόγῳ μὲν καὶ διανοίᾳ ληπτά, ὄψει δʼ οὔ·
"These ornaments in the heavens, since they are embroidered on a visible sky, should be thought of as the most beautiful and most precise of such things, but falling far short of the true ones—namely, those movements which true speed and true slowness, in true number and in all true figures, carry on in relation to one another and which they carry along with them. These indeed are graspable by reason and thought, but not by sight.
ἢ σὺ οἴει; οὐδαμῶς γε, ἔφη.
Or do you think otherwise?" "By no means," he said.
οὐκοῦν, εἶπον, τῇ περὶ τὸν οὐρανὸν ποικιλίᾳ παραδείγμασι χρηστέον τῆς πρὸς ἐκεῖνα μαθήσεως ἕνεκα, ὁμοίως ὥσπερ ἂν εἴ τις ἐντύχοι ὑπὸ Δαιδάλου ἤ τινος ἄλλου δημιουργοῦ ἢ γραφέως διαφερόντως γεγραμμένοις καὶ ἐκπεπονημένοις διαγράμμασιν.
"Therefore," I said, "we must use the embroidery in the heavens as models for the sake of learning those other things, just as if one were to encounter diagrams drawn and crafted with exceptional skill by Daedalus or some other craftsman or painter."