Gorgias

SOCRATES: Can you then tell me why you find fault with such power? POLUS: I can. SOCRATES: Why indeed? Speak. POLUS: Because it is necessary that the one who acts in this way is punished. SOCRATES: And is being punished not an evil? POLUS: Certainly. SOCRATES: So then, my admirable friend, it appears to you once more that if doing what seems fit to someone is followed by doing it beneficially, it is a good thing, and this, as it seems, is what it is to have great power; but if not, it is a bad thing and to have little power. And let us consider this as well: do we agree that sometimes it is better to do those things we were just now speaking of, namely to kill and banish men and deprive them of property, and sometimes not? POLUS: Certainly. SOCRATES: This, then, as it seems, is agreed upon both by you and by me. POLUS: Yes. SOCRATES: When, then, do you say it is better to do these things? Tell me what limit you define. POLUS: You rather, Socrates, answer this yourself. SOCRATES: I say then, Polus, if it is more pleasing to you to hear it from me, that when someone does these things justly, it is better, but when unjustly, worse. POLUS: It is hard to refute you, Socrates! But could not even a child refute you and show that you do not speak the truth? SOCRATES: I shall then be very grateful to the child, and equally to you, if you refute me and rid me of my folly. But do not grow weary of doing a favor to a friend, but refute me. POLUS: But indeed, Socrates, there is no need at all to refute you with ancient matters; for these things that happened only yesterday and the day before are sufficient to refute you and to demonstrate that many unjust men are happy. SOCRATES: What sort of things are these? POLUS: Surely you see this Archelaus, the son of Perdiccas, ruling Macedonia? SOCRATES: If I do not see him, at least I hear of him. POLUS: Does he then seem to you to be happy or miserable? SOCRATES: I do not know, Polus; for I have not yet met the man. POLUS: What? Would you know it by meeting him, but otherwise you do not recognize straight off from here that he is happy? SOCRATES: No, by Zeus, certainly not. POLUS: It is clear then, Socrates, that you will say you do not even recognize the Great King as being happy. SOCRATES: And I shall speak the truth; for I do not know how he stands with respect to education and justice. POLUS: What? Is all happiness in this? SOCRATES: So I say, Polus; for I claim that the noble and good man and woman are happy, but the unjust and wicked are miserable.

POLUS: Is this Archelaus then miserable according to your argument? SOCRATES: If indeed, my friend, he is unjust. POLUS: But how indeed is he not unjust? A man to whom belonged no part of the rule which he now holds, since he was born of a woman who was a slave of Alcetas, the brother of Perdiccas, and according to justice he was a slave of Alcetas, and if he wished to do what is just, he would be slaving for Alcetas and would be happy according to your argument. But now he has become wonderfully miserable, since he has committed the greatest injustices; who first of all, having sent for this very master and uncle of his, as if to restore the rule which Perdiccas took from him, having entertained him and made him and his son Alexander, his own cousin, who was almost his equal in age, completely drunk, threw them into a wagon, took them out by night, slaughtered them and made away with both of them. And having done these unjust deeds, he did not realize that he had become most miserable and did not feel any regret; but a little later, when he had a brother, the legitimate son of Perdiccas, a boy of about seven years, to whom the rule belonged according to justice, he did not wish to become happy by justly rearing him and restoring the rule to him, but having thrown him into a well and drowned him, he told his mother Cleopatra that he had fallen in while chasing a goose and died. Therefore now, having committed the greatest injustices of those in Macedonia, he is the most miserable of all Macedonians, but not the happiest, and perhaps there is some Athenian, beginning with you, who would choose to become any other Macedonian whatsoever rather than Archelaus. SOCRATES: At the beginning of our discussion, Polus, I praised you because you seemed to me to be well-educated in rhetoric, but to have neglected dialogue; and now, is this the argument with which even a child would refute me, and have I now, as you think, been refuted by you with this argument, when I assert that the wrongdoer is not happy? How so, my good friend? For indeed I agree to none of these things that you say. POLUS: Because you do not wish to, since it seems to you just as I say.