- Source
- Diogenes Laertius. Hicks, R. D., editor. Cambridge, MA.: Harvard University Press; London: William Heinemann Ltd., 1925.
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- AI-generated (gemini-3.8-flash) — machine translation; may contain errors
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- CTS URN
- urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0004.tlg001.humanitext-grc2:3.1.12-3.1.17
- Generated
- Humanitext Reader · reader.humanitext.ai · 2026-09-24
Alcimus quotes Epicharmus to demonstrate that Plato's distinctions between the sensible and intelligible and his theory of forms were borrowed from the comic poet, concluding with Epicharmus's prophecy of an imitator.
Ἔτι φησὶν ὁ Ἄλκιμος καὶ ταυτί· “φασὶν οἱ σοφοὶ τὴν ψυχὴν τὰ μὲν διὰ τοῦ σώματος αἰσθάνεσθαι οἷον ἀκούουσαν, βλέπουσαν, τὰ δʼ αὐτὴν καθʼ αὑτὴν ἐνθυμεῖσθαι μηδὲν τῷ σώματι χρωμένην· διὸ καὶ τῶν ὄντων τὰ μὲν αἰσθητὰ εἶναι, τὰ δὲ νοητά. ὧν ἕνεκα καὶ Πλάτων ἔλεγεν, ὅτι δεῖ τοὺς συνιδεῖν τὰς τοῦ παντὸς ἀρχὰς ἐπιθυμοῦντας1 πρῶτον μὲν αὐτὰς καθʼ αὑτὰς διελέσθαι τὰς ἰδέας, οἷον ὁμοιότητα καὶ μονάδα καὶ πλῆθος καὶ μέγεθος καὶ στάσιν καὶ κίνησιν· δεύτερον αὐτὸ καθʼ αὑτὸ τὸ
Alcimus also says these things: "The wise say that the soul perceives some things through the body, as for instance by hearing and seeing, while it reflects upon other things by itself, using the body not at all; wherefore of existing things, some are sensible and others are intelligible. For which reasons Plato also said that those who desire to grasp together the principles of the universe must, first, divide the forms in themselves, such as likeness and unity and multitude and magnitude and rest and motion; secondly, they must postulate the
καλὸν καὶ ἀγαθὸν καὶ δίκαιον καὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα ὑποθέσθαι· τρίτον τῶν ἰδεῶν συνιδεῖν ὅσαι πρὸς ἀλλήλας εἰσίν, οἷον ἐπιστήμην ἢ μέγεθος ἢ δεσποτείαν 〈ἐνθυμουμένους ὅτι τὰ παρʼ ἡμῖν διὰ τὸ μετέχειν ἐκείνων ὁμώνυμα ἐκείνοις ὑπάρχει· λέγω δὲ οἷον δίκαια μὲν ὅσα τοῦ δικαίου, καλὰ δὲ ὅσα τοῦ καλοῦ〉. ἔστι δὲ τῶν εἰδῶν ἓν ἕκαστον ἀίδιόν τε καὶ νόημα καὶ πρὸς τούτοις ἀπαθές. [διὸ καί φησιν ἐν τῇ φύσει τὰς ἰδέας ἑστάναι καθάπερ παραδείγματα, τὰ δʼ ἄλλα ταύταις ἐοικέναι τούτων ὁμοιώματα καθεστῶτα.] ὁ τοίνυν Ἐπίχαρμος περί τε τοῦ ἀγαθοῦ καὶ περὶ τῶν ἰδεῶν οὕτω λέγει·
beautiful, the good, the just, and such things, each in itself; thirdly, they must grasp together which among the forms are relative to one another, such as knowledge or magnitude or mastery 〈considering that the things among us exist as homonymous with those by virtue of participating in them; and I mean, for example, that all things which participate in the just are just, and all things which participate in the beautiful are beautiful〉. And each of the forms is eternal, an object of thought, and in addition impassible. [Wherefore he also says that the forms stand in nature like paradigms, while other things resemble them, being established as their likenesses.] Accordingly Epicharmus speaks thus concerning the good and concerning the forms:
" ἆρʼ ἔστιν αὔλησίς τι πρᾶγμα; — πάνυ μὲν οὖν. — ἄνθρωπος οὖν αὔλησίς ἐστιν; — οὐθαμῶς. — φέρʼ ἴδω, τί δʼ αὐλητάς; τίς εἶμέν τοι δοκεῖ; ἄνθρωπος; ἢ οὐ γάρ; — πάνυ μὲν οὖν. — οὐκ οὖν δοκεῖς οὕτως ἔχειν 〈κα〉 καὶ περὶ τἀγαθοῦ; τὸ μὲν ἀγαθόν τι πρᾶγμʼ εἶμεν καθʼ αὕθʼ, ὅστις δέ κα εἰδῇ μαθὼν τῆνʼ, ἀγαθὸς ἤδη γίγνεται. ὥσπερ γάρ ἐστʼ αὔλησιν αὐλητὰς μαθὼν ἢ ὄρχησιν ὀρχηστάς τις ἢ πλοκεὺς πλοκάν, ἢ πᾶν γʼ ὁμοίως τῶν τοιούτων ὅ τι τὺ λῇς, οὔ χʼ αὑτὸς εἴη χἀ τέχνα, τεχνικός γα μάν2."
' —Is flute-playing a real thing? —Most certainly. —Is man then flute-playing? —By no means. —Come, let me see: what then is a flute-player? Who does he seem to you to be? A man? Or is he not? —Most certainly. —Do you not then think that the case is thus also concerning the good? The good is indeed a real thing in itself, and whoever knows it by learning, straightway becomes good. For just as a flute-player is one who has learned flute-playing, or a dancer one who has learned dancing, or a weaver weaving, or quite similarly in any of such cases that you wish, the person and the art itself would not be the same, yet he is at any rate an artisan.'
Πλάτων ἐν τῇ περὶ τῶν ἰδεῶν ὑπολήψει φησίν, εἴπερ ἐστὶ μνήμη, τὰς ἰδέας ἐν τοῖς οὖσιν ὑπάρχειν διὰ τὸ τὴν μνήμην ἠρεμοῦντός τινος καὶ μένοντος εἶναι· μένειν δὲ οὐδὲν ἕτερον ἢ τὰς ἰδέας. ιτίνα γὰρ ἂν τρόπον,ʼ φησί, ιδιεσῴζετο τὰ ζῷα μὴ τῆς ἰδίας ἐφαπτόμενα3 καὶ πρὸς τοῦτο τὸν νοῦν φυσικὸν εἰληφότα; νῦν δὲ μνημονεύει τῆς ὁμοιότητός τε καὶ τροφῆς, ὁποία τις ἐστὶν αὐτοῖς, ἐνδεικνύμενα διότι πᾶσι τοῖς ζῴοις ἔμφυτός ἐστιν ἡ τῆς ὁμοιότητος θεωρία· διὸ καὶ τῶν ὁμοφύλων αἰσθάνεται.ʼ πῶς οὖν ὁ Ἐπίχαρμος;
Plato, in his conception concerning the forms, says that if indeed there is recollection, the forms exist among realities because recollection is of something that is at rest and remains; and that nothing remains other than the forms. 'For in what way,' he says, 'would living beings have been preserved if they had not grasped the form appropriate to them and received for this purpose a natural intellect? But as it is, they remember both likeness and nourishment, of what sort it is for them, showing thereby that the contemplation of likeness is innate in all living beings; wherefore they also perceive their fellow species.' How then does Epicharmus speak?
" Εὔμαιε, τὸ σοφόν ἐστιν οὐ καθʼ ἓν μόνον, ἀλλʼ ὅσσα περ ζῇ, πάντα καὶ γνώμαν ἔχει. καὶ γὰρ τὸ θῆλυ τᾶν ἀλεκτορίδων γένος, αἰ λῇς καταμαθεῖν ἀτενές, οὐ τίκτει τέκνα ζῶντʼ, ἀλλʼ ἐπῴζει καὶ ποιεῖ ψυχὰν ἔχειν. τὸ δὲ σοφὸν ἁ φύσις τόδʼ οἶδεν ὡς ἔχει μόνα· πεπαίδευται γὰρ αὐταύτας ὕπο." καὶ πάλιν· " θαυμαστὸν οὐδὲν ἁμὲ ταῦθʼ οὕτω λέγειν καὶ ἁνδάνειν αὐτοῖσιν αὐτοὺς καὶ δοκεῖν καλὼς πεφύκειν· καὶ γὰρ ἁ κύων κυνὶ κάλλιστον εἶμεν φαίνεται καὶ βοῦς βοΐ, ὄνος δʼ ὄνῳ κάλλιστον, ὗς δέ θην ὑί."
' Eumaeus, wisdom is not confined to one single kind, but as many things as live, all possess discernment too. For the female race of fowls, if you wish to observe attentively, does not bring forth living offspring, but broods upon them and causes them to have soul. And as to how this wisdom stands, Nature alone knows; for she has been educated by herself.' And again: ' It is no wonder that we speak these things in this way, and that men please themselves and think that they have been born fairly; for to a dog a dog seems to be the most beautiful thing, and a cow to a cow, and an ass to an ass is most beautiful, and a pig surely to a pig.'
Καὶ ταῦτα μὲν καὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα διὰ τῶν τεττάρων βιβλίων παραπήγνυσιν ὁ Ἄλκιμος παρασημαίνων τὴν ἐξ Ἐπιχάρμου Πλάτωνι περιγινομένην ὠφέλειαν. ὅτι δʼ οὐδʼ αὐτὸς Ἐπίχαρμος ἠγνόει τὴν αὑτοῦ σοφίαν, μαθεῖν ἐστι κἀκ τούτων ἐν οἷς τὸν ζηλώσοντα προμαντεύεται· " ὡς δʼ ἐγὼ δοκέω, —δοκέων γὰρ σάφα ἴσαμι4 τοῦθʼ ὅτι τῶν ἐμῶν μνάμα ποκʼ ἐσσεῖται λόγων τούτων ἔτι. καὶ λαβών τις αὐτὰ περιδύσας τὸ μέτρον ὃ νῦν ἔχει, εἷμα δοὺς καὶ πορφυροῦν λόγοισι ποικίλας καλοῖς δυσπάλαιστος ὢν τὸς ἄλλως εὐπαλαίστους ἀποφανεῖ."
And these things and the like Alcimus sets side by side throughout his four books, indicating the benefit accruing to Plato from Epicharmus. And that Epicharmus himself was not unaware of his own wisdom, one can learn also from these lines, in which he prophesies the one who would imitate him: ' And as I deem—for in deeming I know this clearly, that a memory of these words of mine will still exist hereafter. And someone, taking them and stripping off the metre which they now have, having given them a purple robe and embellished them with fine words, being difficult to wrestle with, will show all others to be easy to throw.'
- 3.1.12δεῖ τοὺς συνιδεῖν τὰς τοῦ παντὸς ἀρχὰς ἐπιθυμοῦντας
In the impersonal construction with δεῖ, the accusative participial phrase τοὺς ... ἐπιθυμοῦντας serves as the subject of the three subsequent coordinate infinitives: διελέσθαι, ὑποθέσθαι, and συνιδεῖν.
- 3.1.14οὔ χʼ αὑτὸς εἴη χἀ τέχνα, τεχνικός γα μάν
Doric οὔ χʼ stands for οὐκ ἄν, and χἀ for καὶ ἡ. The potential optative clause (ἄν ... εἴη) states that the person and the craft itself would not be identical (οὔ χʼ αὑτὸς εἴη χἀ τέχνα), while τεχνικός γα μάν ellipsis-supplies the subject, affirming that the practitioner is nevertheless skilled/an artisan.
- 3.1.15μὴ τῆς ἰδίας ἐφαπτόμενα
The participle with μή functions conditionally, standing for a contrary-to-fact condition (equivalent to εἰ μή + past indicative, coordinated with εἰληφότα) subordinate to the past counterfactual apodosis διεσῴζετο ἄν: 'if they had not grasped the form...'. The form ἰδίας is read here as representing ἰδέας ('form').
- 3.1.17δοκέων γὰρ σάφα ἴσαμι
In the parenthetical remark, the participle δοκέων (Doric for δοκῶν) picks up the preceding ὡς δʼ ἐγὼ δοκέω with restrictive or concessive force: 'for though deeming, I know clearly'. ἴσαμι is the Doric 1st singular present indicative corresponding to Attic οἶδα.
