Gorgias

​SOCRATES: If, then, when you answer, I also do not know what to make of it, you too stretch out a speech; but if I do, let me use it, for that is just. And now, if you can make any use of this answer of mine, do so. POLUS: What do you say, then? Does rhetoric seem to you to be flattery? SOCRATES: I said indeed it was a part of flattery. But do you not remember at your age, Polus? What will you do next? POLUS: Do the good rhetoricians then seem to you to be regarded in their cities as worthless flatterers? SOCRATES: Is this a question you are asking, or are you starting some argument? POLUS: I am asking, indeed. SOCRATES: They do not seem to me to be regarded at all. POLUS: How not regarded? Do they not have the greatest power in their cities? SOCRATES: No, not if you mean that having power is something good for the one who has it. POLUS: But indeed I do say so. SOCRATES: Then the rhetoricians seem to me to have the least power of those in the city. POLUS: What? Do they not, like tyrants, kill whomsoever they wish, and strip of property, and banish from the cities whomsoever they see fit? SOCRATES: By the dog, I am actually in doubt, Polus, regarding each of the things you say, whether you are saying these things yourself and declaring your own opinion, or asking me. POLUS: But indeed I am asking you. SOCRATES: Very well, my friend. Then are you asking me two questions at once? POLUS: How two? SOCRATES: Did you not just now say something like this: “Do not the rhetoricians kill whomsoever they wish, like tyrants, and strip of property, and banish from the cities whomsoever they see fit?” POLUS: I did. SOCRATES: I tell you then that these are two questions, and I will answer you to both. For I say, Polus, that both the rhetoricians and the tyrants have the least power in their cities, just as I was saying; for they do almost nothing of what they wish, though they do whatever seems to them to be best. POLUS: Is this not then having great power? SOCRATES: No, not according to what Polus says, at least. POLUS: I say not? Indeed, I do say so. SOCRATES: By the—no, you do not, since you said that having great power is something good for the one who has power. POLUS: Yes, indeed I do. SOCRATES: Do you then think it is good, if someone does those things which seem to him to be best, when he has no intelligence? And do you call this having great power? POLUS: Not I.

​SOCRATES: Will you not then prove that the rhetoricians have intelligence and that rhetoric is an art and not flattery, by refuting me? But if you leave me unrefuted, the rhetoricians who do in their cities what seems fit to them, and the tyrants, will have acquired no good in this, though power is, as you say, a good, and doing what seems fit without intelligence is, as you also agree, an evil; or is it not? POLUS: Yes, I do. SOCRATES: How then could the rhetoricians or the tyrants have great power in their cities, unless Socrates is refuted by Polus that they do what they wish? POLUS: This fellow— SOCRATES: I say they do not do what they wish; but refute me! POLUS: Did you not just now agree that they do what seems best to them? SOCRATES: Yes, and I agree to it now too. POLUS: Do they not then do what they wish? SOCRATES: I say they do not. POLUS: While doing what seems fit to them? SOCRATES: I say so, yes. POLUS: You say outrageous and extraordinary things, Socrates! SOCRATES: Do not speak ill, my excellent Polus, that I may address you in your own style; but if you have questions to ask me, show that I am lying, but if not, answer yourself. POLUS: But I am willing to answer, so that I may also know what you mean. SOCRATES: Do people then seem to you to wish for that which they do on each occasion, or for that for the sake of which they do what they do? For instance, do those who drink medicine from doctors seem to you to wish for that which they do, namely, to drink the medicine and suffer pain, or for that other thing, to be healthy, for the sake of which they drink it? POLUS: Clearly, to be healthy. SOCRATES: Then also those who sail and engage in other business do not wish for that which they do on each occasion (for who wishes to sail and run risks and have trouble?), but they wish, I think, for that for the sake of which they sail, namely, to be rich; for they sail for the sake of wealth. POLUS: Quite so. SOCRATES: Is it then not so with everything? If someone does something for the sake of something, he does not wish for that which he does, but for that for the sake of which he does it? POLUS: Yes. SOCRATES: Is there then anything in existence which is not either good, or bad, or intermediate between these, neither good nor bad? POLUS: It is absolutely necessary, Socrates. SOCRATES: Do you then say that wisdom, health, wealth, and other such things are good, and their opposites bad? POLUS: I do indeed.