Republic

​But to make speeches when one is uncertain and searching at the same time, which is indeed what I am doing, is a fearful and slippery thing; not because of incurring laughter—for that is childish—but for fear that, having slipped from the truth, I shall lie prostrate, not only myself but also dragging my friends down with me, in matters where one least ought to slip. I bow to Adrasteia, Glaucon, for the sake of what I am about to say; for I hope that to become an involuntary homicide of someone is a lesser offense than to be a deceiver about beautiful, good, and just institutions. Therefore, to run this risk among enemies is better than among friends, so your comfort is not well-suited. And Glaucon, laughing, said, “But, Socrates, if we suffer any discordant harm from your discourse, we release you as if from homicide, and declare you to be pure and not a deceiver of us. So speak with confidence.” “But indeed,” I said, “the one who has been released there is surely pure, as the law says; and if there, it is reasonable that it should be so here too.” “Speak, then,” he said, “as far as this is concerned.” “We must now, then,” I said, “speak in reverse order of what perhaps ought to have been said in sequence then; but perhaps it would be right in this way, after the male drama has been completely finished, to perform the female one in turn, especially since you challenge me so. For to men born and educated as we described, in my opinion, there is no other right possession and use of children and wives than by proceeding along that path on which we first started; and we attempted, I believe, to establish the men in our discourse as guardians of a herd.” “Yes.” ”Let us follow, then, by assigning a similar birth and rearing to them, and let us consider whether it is suitable for us or not.” “How?” he said. “In this way. Do we think that the females of the guardian dogs ought to guard together what the males guard, and hunt with them, and do all other things in common, or should the females stay indoors and keep house as being unable because of the birth and rearing of the puppies, while the males labor and have all the care of the flocks?” ”In common,” he said, “in all things; except that we treat the females as weaker, and the males as stronger.” “Is it possible, then,” I said, “to use any animal for the same tasks if you do not give it the same rearing and education?” “It is not possible.”

​Therefore, if we are to use the women for the same tasks as the men, we must also teach them the same things. ”Yes.” “Now, music and gymnastics were given to those men.” “Yes.” “Then these two arts and the things concerning war must also be assigned to the women, and they must be used in the same way.” “It is likely from what you say,” he said. “Perhaps, then,” I said, “contrary to custom, many of the things now being said would appear ridiculous if they are practiced as they are said.” “Very much so,” he said. “What,” I said, “do you see as the most ridiculous of them? Or is it clearly that women should exercise naked in the wrestling schools with the men, not only the young women, but even already the older ones, just like the old men in the gymnasia, who, when they are wrinkled and not pleasant to look at, nevertheless still love to exercise?” “By Zeus,” he said, “for it would indeed appear ridiculous, at least under present conditions.” “Therefore,” I said, “since we have started to speak, we must not fear the jests of the witty, however many and of what kind they might say against such a change taking place, both regarding gymnastics and music, and not least regarding the holding of weapons and the riding of horses.” “You speak rightly,” he said. “But since we have begun to speak, we must proceed to the rough part of the law, and entreat these people not to do their own business but to be serious, and remind them that it is not a long time since it seemed shameful and ridiculous to the Greeks—just as it does now to most of the barbarians—to see naked men, and when the Cretans first, and then the Lacedaemonians, began the gymnasia, it was possible for the witty men of that time to make a comedy of all these things. Or do you not think so?” “I do.” “But when, I think, to those who practiced it, stripping was shown to be better than covering all such parts, then what was ridiculous to the eyes faded away before what was shown by reason to be best. And this demonstrated that he is vain who considers anything other than the bad to be ridiculous, and who attempts to raise a laugh by looking at any other sight as ridiculous than that of the foolish and the bad, and who, again, seriously pursues the beautiful by setting up any other target than that of the good.” “Entirely so,” he said.