Republic

“For how, my good sir,” I said, “could anyone answer, in the first place, when he does not know and does not claim to know, and next, if he does have some opinion, when he has been forbidden by no ordinary man to say any of the things he thinks? Rather, it is more reasonable for you to speak, for you claim to know and to be able to tell. So do not do otherwise, but do me a favor by answering, and do not grudge to instruct Glaucon here and the others.” When I had said this, Glaucon and the others begged him not to do otherwise. And Thrasymachus was clearly eager to speak in order to win a reputation, thinking he had an excellent answer; but he pretended to be contentious, insisting that I should be the one to answer. In the end, however, he agreed, and then said, “This indeed is the wisdom of Socrates: he refuses to teach himself, but goes around learning from others and does not even pay thanks in return.” “That I learn from others,” I said, “is true, Thrasymachus, but when you say that I do not pay thanks, you are lying; for I pay as much as I can. And I can only praise, for I have no money. How eagerly I do this, when someone seems to me to speak well, you will know very well indeed as soon as you answer; for I think you will speak well.” ”Listen then,” he said. “For I say that the just is nothing other than the advantage of the stronger. Well, why don’t you praise? But you won’t be willing.” “If I learn first, at any rate,” I said, “what you mean; for now I do not yet know. You say that the advantage of the stronger is the just. And what on earth do you mean by this, Thrasymachus? For surely you do not mean something like this: if Polydamas the pancratiast is stronger than we are and beef is advantageous to his body, this food is also advantageous and therefore just for us who are weaker than he.” “You are disgusting, Socrates,” he said, “and you take it in the way you can best damage the argument.” “Not at all, my excellent friend,” I said; “but tell me more clearly what you mean.” “Do you not know, then,” he said, “that of cities, some are ruled by tyrants, some by democracies, and some by aristocracies?” “How could I not?” “Therefore, the ruling power in each city is what is in control?” “Certainly.” ”And each ruling power lays down laws for its own advantage: a democracy lays down democratic laws, a tyranny tyrannical ones, and the others likewise. And having laid them down, they declare this to be just for the ruled—namely, what is to their own advantage—and they punish the one who departs from this as a lawbreaker and doer of injustice.”